this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023
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I didn't used to understand foreign involvement in wars, like the whole America-Vietnam shenanigans. But I can see why after watching this Israeli Palestine Conflict since birth.

But now it's like watching two children fighting over who's sandcastles can be built in the sandbox. And what do we do if children can't learn to share? You take away everything and no one is happy.

So is that what this is going to come to? Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?

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[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 179 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

About 70 years ago European leaders decided the best thing to do with the Jewish people was give them their own country...

So they picked the holy land of three main religions, kicked out everyone that had been living there for centuries and made it a religious ethnostate.

Surprisingly the people who lived there weren't happy to be victims of an ethnic cleansing.

Picking virtually any other place on the globe and it probably would have worked itself out by now.

Cynics think that was intentionally. It's the perfect lightning rod for attacks against "the west" and the hostility leads to plenty of proxy wars while avoiding actual war in Europe again after WW2

[–] agressivelyPassive@feddit.de 70 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It started even earlier, after the ottoman empire fell/dissolved, British and French diplomats basically drew lines on a map Scramble for Africa style and created new countries out of nothing.

That created tons of tension already.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 53 points 1 year ago

Yeah, they broke up Africe with no regard to how many distinct cultures there was.

They looked at that giant ancient landmass and legitimately went "they're all Black, it doesn't matter".

[–] radix@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

The area has been a hotbed for 5000 years. The west didn't help, at any point, but conflict in the middle east is as old as history itself.

[–] squiblet@kbin.social 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There’s also a belief among some Christians in the US (including many political leaders) that a Jewish state was necessary for the second coming of Jesus to occur. Why they’re in a hurry, I don’t know.

[–] FlickOfTheBean@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As one who was raised Evangelical Christian for the majority of my childhood by a devout and Republican parent, I'm pretty sure it's just a death cult.

They live their whole lives only preparing to die.

They forsake and forego a lot of random stuff in favor of rewards after death.

And if they think it'll get them any bonus, they don't care if they take everyone else with them, hence the Republican Evangelical politicians generally trying to supply the ingredients for the battle of Armageddon to happen.

Tldr; I think it's greed typical of those who would fully knowledgeably choose to be a Republican combined with the beliefs of an Evangelical trying to cash in on rewards asap, in the way a Republican typically does.

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[–] Devi@kbin.social 85 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is a really patronising take.

Imagine if your country was 'donated' to a whole other group of people, they took over, murdered people, took your home, tortured your grandparents, you're going to be mad. It's not 'childish', it's reality.

[–] qdJzXuisAndVQb2@lemm.ee 40 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The whole Levant area has seen so many blood-soaked conquests that any claim of 'proper' or 'original' owners is wilfully and maliciously ignorant. This is also the case for pretty much every bit of solid ground. Your desire to return things to "how they were" is just you picking your fave point on a timeline of history.

[–] Devi@kbin.social 33 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Not what I said in the slightest. Current residents were and still are being displaced.

Take my own house as an example, who lived here originally? Probably some celts. Who lived here before me? Fuck knows, but they left and it tranferred to me.

If someone decided to donate my house to someone else would I be mad? Fuck yes.

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[–] Floey@lemm.ee 71 points 1 year ago (7 children)

You are speaking from an incredible place of privilege. You're nation had one of the most successful expansionist genocides in history. The reason there is still conflict in that region is because Israel's expansionist genocide is WIP.

[–] ieightpi@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

That expansionist genocide you are referring to must be the indigenous peoples of North America, correct?

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[–] bouh@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

There are 3 outs to this conflict: Israel absorbs Palestine (and probably does a genocide), Palestine absorbs Israel (and probably does a genocide), or they start to be friends and live together.

Context matters a bit on this : Jews have been harassed for litteral millenia. After ww2 were they were harassed even more than before, they were given their original land from were they were chased millenia ago. You can argue it's partly their fault for keeping their culture and religion eventhough they're all over the world, but I think one should be free to live its life regardless of its religion.

Fast forward to today: Israel became as racist and intolerant as everyone gave them through history, so out 3 is quite not likely. Palestinians are not really better on this, because they've been chased from their homes to begin with and war took its toll, and it's now decades of apartheid to fuel hatred and resentment.

Was it for them only, Palestine would be erased and Muslims genocided or deported in the neighboring countries. But both the UN and the neighbor Muslim states are very much hostile to Israel and several wars happened so that it would be the Palestinian who would genocide and deport the Jews. But they lost, partly because Israel is supported by the USA.

Now the USA will support Israel forever. I guess they like to have an outpost in the area. So Israel won't be deleted in the foreseeable future. But UN and the USA (oddly) don't want to see Palestine erased. Which lead to parents and kids situation.

In brief, Israel and Palestine would gladly fight to the death (I guess Palestine hope for an escalation with the neighbouring countries). But UN doesn't want that (because the US want to be seen as the good guys, and no one wants the US to gain more ground than what they have with Israel). And there we are: the kids hate eachother but the parents don't want anyone to win, because each parent has a favourite child.

The deadly loop of apartheid => terrorism => apartheid needs to end, but no one wants it.

[–] blazera@kbin.social 49 points 1 year ago (6 children)

A country with no involvement in world war 2 had its land taken as reparation for world war 2.

[–] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (11 children)

[This comment has been deleted by an automated system]

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[–] kromem@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Because conservative religious people are insane, and that region involves three different and conflicting religions.

If suddenly you snapped your fingers and the entire region/world became irreligious, peace would exist there within a generation or so.

That's not going to happen, so it's going to continue to be a clusterfuck for as long as any large groups of people believe a magical being in the sky has destined the state of the region to be a given thing without compromise.

[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If suddenly you snapped your fingers and the entire region/world became irreligious, peace would exist there within a generation or so.

This is unlikely. The grievances between the various ethnic groups in the region are older than the Abrahamic religions, and older than the historical records that we have (see my other post). Individual people may have short memories, but cultures have very long memories. If you took the religion away, the groups would still mistrust and hate each other - the fighting has been going on since at least the Bronze Age.

[–] kromem@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

Literally every region on earth has cultural histories of atrocities that have been moved beyond in the sake of peace and cohabitation.

You'd need to make a case for why this particular region would be atypical enough to be the exception, and outside of continued belief in opposing religious claims, I don't see any that would merit such a status.

Do Jews or Russians and Germans currently live in peace with each other in Germany? Are the Japanese in the US secretly planning terrorist attacks on everyone else for the internment camps of WW2? Do American tourists to Vietnam need to worry about being kidnapped and beheaded by the children of people who suffered war crimes?

It's the religions, not the history.

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[–] darganon@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The wikipedia article on that piece of land is crazy. Religious zealots have been fighting over it since basically recorded history started.

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[–] jarfil@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago (5 children)

it's like watching two children fighting over who's sandcastles can be built in the sandbox

Welcome to war.

And what do we do if children can't learn to share? You take away everything and no one is happy.

So is that what this is going to come to? Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?

That would be nice... only there are no adults.

PS: any adults 👽 out there... whenever you're ready, we welcome you 🛸

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[–] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 40 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The conflict in the Mesopotamian region are the oldest in recorded history. These episodes of the Fall of Civilizations podcast do a pretty good job of describing the various nation states in the area and what we know about what happened to them:

It's important to understand that these nation states are the oldest known. They are a part of the cultural background of all human civilization. Their conflicts are not only a part of what the Middle East is today, but of what the entire world is today. Their history is our history.

Almost every major conqueror in history, and many minor ones, started conflicts in the Middle East, including Alexander, Julius Caesar, and Genghis Khan.

Between the 7th and 11th centuries, there was a series of wars between the various Arab nations and the Eastern Roman Empire.

Following that, various European nations attempted to conquer parts of the Middle East in the Crusades.

During the 1800s, various European empires took control over various parts of the Middle East, through both military and political action, though the Ottoman Empire controlled most of the region.

WWI saw the end of the Ottoman Empire, after which the European powers carved up their territory.

During Operation Exporter in WWII a British-led force invaded Syria and Lebanon to take control from Vichy France, which had signed the Paris Accords and given territorial control to the German military. Conflict in the area continued after WWII.

This isn't an exhaustive timeline by any means. No part of our world has been fought over as often, or with as much force, as the Middle East. The feuds there are older than recorded history.

This attitude:

Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?

Demonstrates an ignorance of world history. It's an arrogant point of view that suggests that the people living in the area are solely responsible for the long history of conflict, which is not the case. And the idea that Western nations could and/or should take actions in this area to "quell the infants" is absolutely delusional. The history of all such actions (such as Desert Storm I and II) has led to more destabilization and conflict in the Middle East, not less.

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[–] bitsplease@lemmy.ml 38 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Do adults need to intervene to quell the infants?

I just want to point out that bigger stronger countries stepping in to "soothe the conflict" between two smaller countries has worked basically 0 times throughout all of history in the long run.

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[–] GrabtharsHammer@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It’s not so much two infants irrationally arguing. Israel has owned some of this land for three generations. So the folks living there have passed it down as long as they’ve been alive. But another group owned it first, and the oldest among them remember the days before the occupiers came.

It’s like if the Cherokee decided to go full on guerrila warfare in the 1940s. Would they maybe have a point? How would it square with folks that had already been there for 80 years? It’s the settlers generational home now, too. Everyone has legitimate greivances. It’s not about settling tantrums, it’s about mediating between people that have legitimate but mutually exclusive claims.

[–] ccunix@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The problem goes back further. You say "another group owned it first", but Israel say they have had that land for millennia and it was given to them by God.

Palestine did not even exist until the British randomly carved it out on a map except for a brief period under the Romans around 0BC. The Romans called it Palestine in order to remove Israel's identity.

How far back do we go?

[–] spirinolas@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My God said your home belongs to me so...gtfo. Please, leave something in the fridge for dinner. /s

Palestinians themselves, like Jews, descend from the ancient Hebrews. While the Jews left and (somewhat) assimilated in the lands they moved to, Palestinians were assimiliated by the Romans and Arabs. While their language and religion changed they are basically the same people.

[–] redballooon@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

And like any good brothers they go full Cain and Abel.

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[–] echodot@feddit.uk 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Part of the problem is neither group seem to have any real interest in negotiation. Both groups seem to engage in war crimes attacking civilians and other illegitimate targets.

Every couple of years they get bored and lob missiles at each other, but the "war" has essentially devolved into a stalemate where everyone's just trying to cause as much misery as possible without any real hope of victory or advancement.

I don't understand why there are any westerners there. The whole region is red flagged for UK citizens, there's no way I can get insurance to go there, I don't understand how some people do.

[–] dustyData@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Israel is coming out of a political crisis from 2021that saw a huge loss in confidence on the government including a dissolution of the parliament. Now that Netanyahu is in power again, he loves that this war broke out. Nothing cements a government in power like a good war.

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[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 30 points 1 year ago
[–] DivergentHarmonics@sopuli.xyz 27 points 1 year ago

Besides all the very interesting comments and links here about the violent history of the area, here's an answer from one Israeli guy I once asked a similar question. His take was that it is basically a mafiose environment now ... "both sides are corrupt to their core" -- the religiosity of the people would be abused by profiteers.

[–] chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The middle east has been fighting for thousands of years. Religion is a helluva thing.

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[–] scarabic@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

Basically, hate sells.

I could unpack that phrase over thousands of words about how generation after generation of Palestinians get indoctrinated, or how the leaders of the Arab nations use hating Israel as a way to show their strength and dedication. Or how generation after generation of Israelis have come to see Palestinians as something less than human. But let’s just summarize: hate sells.

[–] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Many countries in the Middle East are essentially Banana Republics. They are countries that have a large amount of wealth that comes almost entirely from exporting a natural resource. The government in these countries is less of a government and more of a group of people who control the export market. They don't rely on their citizens for support, they rely on other countries buying their exports. As long as their exports keep being purchased, the government has the money and power to do whatever it pleases.

Foreign involvement in these countries is usually to ensure the exports keep coming. The USA specifically spends a lot of money on being world police with their military because its easier to make trade deals with countries when they're not at war.

It's not that adults need to stop children from fighting. It's adults going to the gas station and getting upset the employees are spending too much time fighting and not enough time pumping gas.

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[–] jacktherippah@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

A while ago I watched a video from RealLifeLore covering this topic and the TLDR is that poorly drawn borders by the British and the French separating religious groups and ethnicities will all but guarantee constant conflicts and instability in the region

[–] gazter@aussie.zone 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The region was defined by constant conflict and instability before Britain and France were even a twinkle in a Celtic eye.

[–] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago

Yeah but damn if we didn't perfect it lol

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Hell no. People here keep posting simplistic solutions but this area has a long bloody complex history. Many previous attempts have demonstrated there is no such solution. Trying to settle the area just means finding a new way to fucj it up more. Just no.

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[–] kdj770@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Zealots following Bronze Age religions. We have the same fucking problem here in the US

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[–] shrugal@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago

One highly significant area for three different world religions means there will always be religious fundamentalists who want to throw out the other two.

[–] pancake@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Israel was basically created by the West, in land that belonged entirely to Palestine. Then, decades later, with Western help, Israel had conquered half of that land, and the UN just decided to enshrine the borders at the time. Now, some more decades later, Israel has expanded way beyond those "compromise" borders, thanks to even more Western help.

There is no "internal conflict" that the West needs to help ending. It was always the West, seeking to create an allied enclave in someone else's land. Or, to build on your metaphor, this is a fight between the adults and the only child who was there from the start, because they want their own kid to play there instead.

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[–] DrMoronicAcid@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Apparently, zinc deficiency is very common in the Middle East, and one of the side effects can be aggression.

This led to Edward de Bono suggesting Marmite as a solution to the conflict in the Middle East, as Marmite contains high concentrations of zinc...

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'll just go with what I heard a middle eastern comedian say:

"It's fucking HOT! Being hot makes you angry!"

So solve global warming, and solve the problems over there. Right?

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[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Tl;dw - European empires fucked everything up and we're still living with the aftermath. Plus oil.

https://youtu.be/JN4mnVLP0rU?si=36-ZaPvu0vg4LN_m

[–] zepheriths@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Imagine having your bed taken away and being told you have a couch you are fine. You would be mad at who took your bed

[–] kakes@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And also the guy then murders half your family.

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[–] callouscomic@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Who are these magical "adults"?

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