Ask Lemmy

I think Western capitalist culture has slowly eroded the value of thinking in favor of doing and, through gradual financial coercion via the International Monetary Fund, this has slowly become the global dominant worldview.

In other words, you were born a few centuries too late for philosophy to be valued. Even in the past it was often met with scrutiny (though often commanded respect).

Nowadays thinkers are expected to ascend corporate ladders and embed themselves within instituions with the ultimate goal of extracting excess capital beyond ones needs from said institutions. That is what the current global value system supports.

Here is a quote, taken slightly out of context, that I believe speaks to what you are experiencing:

"The clinical picture of a person who has been reduced to elemental concerns of survival is still frequently mistaken for a portrait of the survivor's underlying character." - World Health Organization. (May 31, 2016). ICD-11 Beta Draft (Joint Linearization for Mortality and Morbidity Statistics).

Extrapolating from that in this other context, we can assume more and more people are simply losing their capacity to entertain "loftier" ideals than immediate survival. For all too many, there was never any other choice.

I studied philosophy at university in the 80's, and remember the endless jokes about what restaurant job I would be able to get with my degree, etc. It speaks to the hidden framework of capitalism that confines us all. It's only gotten worse in my lifetime.

I look back at my parents, who were able to buy their own house and raise two kids with a single earner, blue collar wage. My mom did eventually work as well, which allowed us children to go to college.

Now I am close to retirement, and I have nothing to show for it. No house, no car, no big retirement payout waiting. I 'squandered' my money and time being an activist and humanitarian, living in the moment and refusing to produce or hoard wealth for the capitalist machine just because.

I try to use my philosophical insight as a practical methodology to remove myself from the clamor for crumbs. I am a minimalist, an environmentalist, a gardener, a handyman and helper, a teacher - a papa smurf to my community and philosopher to my peers. I wouldn't trade it for all the money in the world, but I would be remiss to ignore the looming economic circumstances that threaten the future of humanity, myself included.

But I will forge ahead into this wilderness. As Deleuze and Guattari would say, forget reading someone else's map, become your own cartographer. Philosophy is a great basis for profound understanding of the human condition. It won't make you rich, and it certainly won't be respected or understood in this modern world - but it will enrich you. If you follow your heart it can show you a path through the madness that does not require that you shed your humanity or reduce yourself to that of an economic survivor, victor, or victim, and can serve as a beacon for others less fortunate to have been afforded such a perspective.

I often share the story of Taigu Ryōkan, the Zen Master, who perfectly illustrates both the value of philosophical introspection, and it's liberating effect from the confines of the material world.

https://laspina.org/the-thief-and-the-moon-a-zen-tale-in-ryokans-haiku/

Anti intellectualism.

For a layperson, philosophy doesn’t have an obvious practical application. They think philosophers just sit around pondering esoteric topics and can’t imagine why anyone would pay them for it.

Philosophers are always the first targets of anti-intellectuals. People genuinely believe that studding what's true about the world is a waste of time.

You can tell that this is a prejudice because the same people who think you shouldn't get paid for having useless knowledge will still hire economists.

I'll be real with you: philosophy seems like a bougie thing to major in.

It's something you major in when you have a cushion that allows it.

Most people don't have that cushion, so they get mad when they see someone who does use it.

Just speculating here, but I think the economic situation becoming much more difficult for many people might be a factor. When it's hard finding a decent job even after studying something "good", spending years of your life and possibly lots of money on a degree with no immediate economic benefits might seem like quite a ridiculous luxury.

BUT HOW DO JOB WIF HUMAMBNETEES DUGREE?

That's basically why.

I think it's cool as hell. We all need to read philosophy. I really wish I'd had the bandwidth to do something similar along with my own chosen path. Mad respect.

"The arts are useless and will make you a poor stupid leftist... Do a trade" <----- type of statemet that has been doing the rounds on the far-right since at least 2014.

Well, there's an anti-intellectual streak in the world. And, given the cultural trends of the last 20 years, it's not getting smaller. So there's that. Deep down some people will think you think you're better than them. Deep down some people might be touchy about touchy about their level of education and tired to being lied and condescended to by people presenting themselves as cultural authorieies.

I don't think it makes them uncomfortable, I think they just don't get it.

Most of us are told to go to school to get the job you want, and philosopher really hasn't been a high demand job since ancient Greece.

Hey, almost-same boat here! I’m guessing in your late 20s/early 30s, you were likely surrounded by people who were in the same environment (higher ed), or who were sussing out your potential. But when you’re out of the ivory tower, it doesn’t mean shit.

Humanities degrees are critical thinking in a way that people generally don’t want to engage in. There’s no neat solution, and it will eventually make you confront your own ideology, or the one you’ve been in the grip of, and people really don’t want to think about that. Even more simply, higher ed is a stand in for “liberalism,” and in the last couple years, a thing to outright and wholly reject.

I don’t tell people that my English Ph.D. primary list straight up said “communist theory” at the top. I’m happy to let everyone think I just proofread stuff after 16 years of school, and I’ll say I should’ve been an electrician every time. I think a rich inner life and infinitely more nuanced understanding of the world is better than whatever my neighbor’s got going on.

I personally think anybody here saying your negative response is because people hate thinkers or anti intellectualism or whatever is totally missing the point. Those things are certainly true. But probably not why you get weird looks.

Probably it's a combination of 2 things:

1. In 2025 philosophy, English, history, poetry, etc are to greater or lesser extents "hobby degrees". People enjoy the topics generally but don't see a way to repay loans using that degree, because if you're not going to go teach it or write the next book, there's no money in it. These are things we do with our free time for the love of it.

2. By extension of 1, if you CAN have one of these degrees you either a) have a boatload of money, b) you must be naive of the fact (according to people you are talking to) that your job prospects are very limited, or c) you have extreme aptitude to be part of the small group that can make it, but everybody will still limp you into b.

I have a friend who majored in music in college, but not to teach: it was specifically to play timpani. He also was perplexed at the negative reactions he would get. Unfortunately right before he graduated someone told him that there are only like 10 professional concert timpanist positions in the country that provide a salary you can live from, and the rest just moonlight and have other jobs. After 1 year if hunting a good position he sold his drums and got a job in marketing selling windows and siding.

Of course the world would be less vibrant without professionals in these areas, but there are a lot more philosophy majors working in, say, marketing than there are Humes, Kants, Socrateses, Hegels, and so on.

Basically it doesn't look practical so it seems like either a bad financial choice or that you're a spoiled rich kid unless you mention "double major" type stuff.

Its because most of them don't really know what philosophy is, so someone being a master of it makes them feel very insecure - like they're cornered with a topic they know nothing about.

For whatever it's worth: in my 20s I went for the obvious/easy/high-paying career and have made enough money to retire early. But I deeply regret working for soulless corporations doing pointless bullshit tasks for 35+ years.

I've recently started reading an introductory philosophy book and I love it.

Philosophy gets a bad rap, even by fellow academics sometimes. Commonly cited criticisms are that it has become too prosaic and detached from society at large. Maybe that's true of some philosophers but I don't see a problem with people studying something purely for the joy of learning and there are philosophers who do an excellent job of explaining philosophical ideas to lay audiences, Alain de Botton immediately springs to mind. Status Anxiety is among my favourite videos.

The reality is that we have too few people who think about what it means to live a good life and make a wholesome society

I suspect it's any university degree that doesn't have obvious "practical" benefits at this point (and even then).

anymore than English or History is

It'll be the same for them too.
Nobody appreciates learning for the sake of learning anymore, learning is strictly for getting jobs. Although if you have the money to spend on getting many degrees worrying about paying off loans, then there may be another aspect to the resentment, considering the cost of university these days

I think, because people think it's a useless degree, because there is no industry or marketable jobs not phil that's not from a university. Much like BA in psych or some Studies degree. There really isn't jobs outside of academia for phil. I was in a philosophy course in college like 10+ years, a instructor recently finished his PhD, and seems to love it. But he has no permanent position, so he jumps from college to college teaching it, I was following his LinkedIn profile. On the other side, its probably propaganda against philosophy as too much on one side of the political spectrum, right wingers scoff and it quite a lot. Also it includes religions as part of the studies, so people find it very uncomfortable that it contradicts their religious beliefs

Because everyone hates moral philosophy professors, Chidi.

I think a philosophy degree is cool as hell. Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise.

Quality of life wise philosophy is the best. Its the basis of most everything. I would be scared as heck to be looking for work with just that though. When I had an opportunity to get a masters I picked up education partially because I was interested in it but also because its largely a mix of philosophy, psychology, and statistics. Likely as close as I could get to philosophy while still being sellable on my resume.

Just imagining the wasted time and brain power makes me uncomfortable

I have a degree in philosophy and a degree in therapy and i promise the therapy part makes people way more uncomfortable than the philosophy part. I never really encountered weird attitudes about philosophy tbh. maybe it's how I own it. I very earnestly live like a Socrates - Diogenes hybrid and try to make smart stuff sound dumb and safe to engage the community neurons. and my general excitement about it, if my philosophy background comes up, it's from a place of passionate curiosity where we're already talking about interesting shit and me using the ph word just makes them think "oh we're about to get into it".

it could also be the context with which ppl get to know me is more receptive to philosophical conversations. I genuinely believe that therapy is literally just a modern philosophy practice.

I've spent hundreds of hours outside a university course studying epistemology. It's one of the most valuable skills I've ever learned.

I spread epistemology like a virus. Thank you philosophy, for the vessel you lend your brother.

I wonder if its the age of people you're interacting with now, as you've gotten older yourself? My first degree was in philosophy, and I still read and discuss the subject when I get the chance. In my 20s lots of peers were curious or genuinely interested, and even if they were dismissive, it was often "what's the point of that?" and could get the interested if I started explaining a classic problem or thought experiment.

Older people however, were generally more disparaging and would openly scoff with "why would we need philosophy!" often followed by "[Science | religion | real life] tells us everything we need to know" depending on their particuar worldview.

At the time I just thought that was what that generation was like, but now I'm in my 40s and I feel like many peers are getting more and more like that. I can only speculate that middle-aged people are less curious and openminded, they've come to terms with the world as they see it and they're interested in getting on with things, not questioning the nature of epistemology or whatever. But the irony is that almost all the major problems that occupy so much of our time as a culture have massive philosophical aspects to them.

I've known 3 philosophy majors that I know of.

One had a PhD and was absolutely insufferable. We were coworkers, and he'd often say falsehoods to try to be funny. Like, "Did you write that documentation I asked for?", and he'd say like "I spent all morning writing it as a series of haikus". I'm like, my guy, just answer the question. I'd ask him to stop being sarcastic so often in professional contexts and he'd be like "I'm not being sarcastic I'm being ironic." You knew what I meant, Ryan!

He would also use language to say things that were tEcHnIcAlLy true. Like, "I finished that task (or 1 equals 1)", except he had more subtle ones.

Was it because he was a philosophy PhD? Probably not. Some of his annoying habits he tied back to philosophy stuff, but he was probably just an asshole. But that's who I think of (other than chidi)

The other one I knew was fine in a messy nihilist rich kid way. Fun at parties. Can't be friends.

And the last one is one of the nicest people I've ever met. Just thoughtful and patient and a really positive person.

I think it's cool! Congratulations on your two degrees. As to your question, I'm not sure why people would find it negative.

There's a philosopher/history of philos on the bowling team I've just joined. I'm philospically inclined so I asked him if Descartes was ripping off Socrates' "I only know that I know nothing" which could be interpreted as "I doubt everything except my existence". It's a topic that came up the other day on Lemmy. He said no, Socrates was just saying he was wiser than everyone else because he wasn't deluded about his abilities.

I asked him about Descartes' relationship to solipsism reply: Descartes wasn't a solipsist because his god wouldn't deceive him like that, Descartes' god is real because of the ontological argument. Which one's that again?...

I kinda just felt like I was making him do his job...

It contradicts their religion. Or at least they feel it does. Thinking about morality/existence/epistemology outside the framework of religion is an affront to Jesus... or something.