You need to stop thinking laws are inviolable writ handed down from God. We're all playing a game of shared make believe where the rules are only strong as the collective will to enforce them. That will doesn't appear to be sufficient so he can likely do what he wants.
this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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No Stupid Questions
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This is the answer. Clear, concise, and correct,
Mafia and Goverment are the same thing at different scales, social order established from a central unit that enforces their will via violence funded by protection money/taxes Just as "cults" eventually become religion at a critical mass, then your fringe beliefs become legitimate church doctrine.
All the rules of the world are made up and only apply if enough people say and act as they apply. Justice is a point of view, not a inherent truth.
Oh good, finally someone I can talk with about metaphysics!
Bruh it won't matter.
Right? Who is gonna stop him from doing whatever the fuck he wants?
Somebody with better aim. I very much doubt we've seen the last attempt on his life. Groups on all sides are inching closer and closer to extremist acts lately, and don't show any signs of slowing down. We're in for chaos now.
I very much doubt we've seen the last attempt on his life.
And it's just as likely to come from a disillusioned historically republican as from someone more to the left.
nice username
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Not only did we squarely place ourselves on the path of economic/social decline for the foreseeable future, but we also just guaranteed that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes.
We have utterly failed as citizens in a democratic society.
Buckle up. It gets much, much worse from here.
He can obviously do whatever the fuck he wants. This unfortunately isn't even a reasonable question to be asking at this point.
Trump and his party are nazis. Nazis suck because they bring the law of the jungle into civilization.
The law of civilization is cooperation.
The law of the jungle is, can I physically do it.
Republicans basically exist to shout, burn their own house down (also yours), and celebrate. They're going to burn the checks and balances.
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The Constitutional text is very broad:
The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
So it looks rather absolute, for Fedral crimes. However, the real situation is complicated. This is just one clause in the Constitution, while the President is supposed to be bound by all of it. So, presumably, he can't exercise his pardon power in a way that violates something else in the Constitution. If you go deeper into the Federalist papers, it's quite clear that the Founders held that no man should be his own judge, and a self-pardon effectively does just that.
Here is a good write-up, although I do note it was written before the Supreme Court put their thumb on the scale and said he could do whatever the hell he wanted, as long as he doesn't get impeached for it:
https://protectdemocracy.org/work/the-presidential-pardon-power-explained/
I expect him to do it anyway. It will be challenged, but courts will reject it due to "lack of standing" and sidestep the messy business of having to tell the King he went too far.
Basically the only answer that takes the question seriously and brings facts to the table instead of an opinion.
No president has tried it before. Whether he can get away with pardoning himself has yet to be seen. For him not to get away with it would require someone to bring some sort of court case challenging it. And to bring a case, they have to have "standing." (That is to say, they have to have some credible justification why the self-pardoning action the president took wronged the petitioner in some way.) Which would probably require some legal argument that has never been made before.
I'm guessing Trump probably could get away with it, but given that no president has tried this, we'll just have to see for sure.
For federal stuff, yes ... probably, it's never been tested, but the current SCOTUS won't stop him.
Not for state crimes. Like the 34 felony counts in NY. But enforcement of any sentence (probably financial) is unclear. Also unprecedented.
I know nothing about anything related to the USA but I predict that Trump will not pay anything
I'd like to see a Constitutional Crisis, please
I dont think he needs to pardon himself.
He cannot pardon himself anyways for state crimes.
But what will happen is the judge would give a slap on the wrist sentence like a fine and call it a day.
Because the alternative is the judge giving a prison sentence and then the president goes "The NY Courts have made their decision, now let them enforce it" essentially creating a State vs Federal government political crisis.
Spoilers, the Federal government wins.
What if NY gonna do, send agents to somehow get past the SS to arrest the president?
If that was even attempted, the president would invoke insurrection act and arrest the governor/judge/ whoever gave the order for the arrest and flip the narrative, claiming the state officials are attempting a coup.
Yes, because he can do anything he wants and just declare legal.
There is no punishment for this supervillain. His cult makes sure of that.
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When he controls the Supreme Court... yes. He can pardon anyone for anything.
Prepare to see everyone involved in the most blatant act of open tyranny since the Civil War pardoned as soon as he takes office.
Yup. The Confederacy won this time. Prepare yourself for a bleak future.
Not state level offenses, only federal crimes, at least as the law stands now.
Dude, the guy is going to pardon everything and anyone. He's going to make the justice a complete joke.
Just like he did in his first term.
Well, he pardoned the people he liked that kissed his ass.
He can't pardon himself of state charges, only federal, at least for now.
he doesn't need to since he already has absolute legal immunity according to the Supreme Court.
The president is now absolutely immune from all legal prosecution as long as it pertains to a "official duty".
The constitution is vague enough about official presidential duties that the official duties of the president can literally be anything.
Trump, and future presidents, are functionally immune from any legal consequences for any actions they take.
At least certain courts may interpret "official duty" differently...
doesn't really matter while the Supreme Court has a conservative majority, unfortunately.
Yup. As long as the Supreme Court is controlled by an ultra-conservative majority it's game over. They ultimately decide America's trajectory. And this election basically cemented that majority for the rest of our lives.
We just placed ourselves on the worst timeline.
definitely sucks right now, but this could spur Supreme Court reform or election reform, Trump could get convicted or impeached on one of the many cases he has coming up, he could die, he could fully go dementia, you'd have Vance, but he does not have the same selfish appeal that dumps does.
The US might be lost, but I doubt it.
I don't think this is the worst timeline. there are way worse timelines.
in one timeline that Russian sergeant or whatever didn't stop his commanding submarine officer from shooting a nuke in retaliation from a false radar reading and starting World War III to 50 years ago.
and then another Russian co-pilot didn't stop his co-pilot from shooting a nuke in retaliation from a false radar reading The captured some geese.
I mean that's two times we got pretty big reprieves in this timeline.
definitely sucks right now, but this could spur Supreme Court reform or election reform
Even under the best circumstances reforming the SC would be extremely unlikely because it would require a super majority. Same with election reform. Our government, in its entirety, will now be run by extremists who literally ran on deconstructing our government and replacing it with something in their image. The way our government has worked our entire lives is likely over.
Trump could get convicted or impeached on one of the many cases he has coming up
Trump is effectively king now. SC made him immune to any and all prosecution while president. Laws only work if the will of the people make them work. The majority of Americans just crowned a king. They aren't going to make those laws work. You will not see justice for Trump's crimes now. That possibility is gone.
he could die, he could fully go dementia,
Doesn't matter. He will be replaced and nothing about this timeline will change.
I don’t think this is the worst timeline. there are way worse timelines.
I mean, obviously. But considering the two timelines we had an option to be on, we chose the worst. And it's going to be very, very bad for average Americans.
"Even under the best circumstances reforming the SC would be extremely unlikely"
No, under the best circumstances it would be extremely likely.
Roberts, Thomas et al would keel over from heart attacks, Trump would have an attack of conscience and elect compassionate, wise judges.
or Hakeem Jeffr ies is persuasive than Trump and everyone commits to Court reform.
"now be run by extremists who literally ran on deconstructing our government and replacing it with something in their image."
they'll certainly try.
there's just too much historical evidence going against your theory of defeatist inevitability/futility.
"The way our government has worked our entire lives is likely over."
this has happened uncountable times throughout just US history, but especially recently when the president was afforded absolutely legal immunity.
I'd say that decision was more ultimately significant than Trump being elected.
"SC made him immune to any and all prosecution while president"
many of dumps past, current and upcoming cases definitively do not have to do with his presidency and occurred outside of his presidency completely.
"Laws only work if the will of the people make them work."
not really. Trump didn't get fined $100 million and lose two court cases solely because of the will of the people.
he went to court because of the legal system, and he lost those legal battles three times recently.
"The majority of Americans just crowned a king."
a chubsy jester, but sure.
"You will not see justice for Trump's crimes now. That possibility is gone."
already seen it a few times, probably going to see it again.
"Doesn't matter. He will be replaced and nothing about this timeline will change."
this is ridiculous and has zero evidence to support it.
dumps is the zealot catalyst here, the person in the seat pretending to fellate and stroke microphones is very important.
If you don't understand that, then your entire realistic perspective is foundationally flawed.
"I mean, obviously."
that this is not the worst timeline was obvious to me.
you claimed the literal opposite statement, that this was in fact the worst timeline, in the previous comment.
"But considering the two timelines we had an option to be on..."
you believe in timelines, but you believe there are only two at any specific moment?
bullet 2 inches left
Hilary doesn't steal Sanders' nomination.
5/4 decisions go four-five.
expand your mind.
"it's going to be very, very bad for average Americans."
oh yeah. almost all Americans. but you know they voted for it so...
blocking the bike path for everyone else, too.
Roberts, Thomas et al would keel over from heart attacks, Trump would have an attack of conscience and elect compassionate, wise judges.
I was talking about best case scenarios in reality, not fantasy.
there’s just too much historical evidence going against your theory of defeatist inevitability/futility
Such as?
many of dumps past, current and upcoming cases definitively do not have to do with his presidency and occurred outside of his presidency completely.
Do you honestly think that matters now? Everything we've seen up to this point suggests that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes and that was BEFORE being crowned king. He will not be held accountable for any of his crimes. You can take me to the bank on that one.
this has happened uncountable times throughout just US history
What we are experiencing now is entirely unprecedented in U.S. history.
not really. Trump didn’t get fined $100 million and lose two court cases solely because of the will of the people.
Has he, thus far, suffered the repercussions of these cases?
already seen it a few times
Being convicted of a crime is not justice if one does not end up suffering repercussions along with those convictions.
this is ridiculous and has zero evidence to support it.
If Trump dies or becomes incapacitated, he is replaced by JD Vance and business as usual resumes. Nothing changes. GOP still calling the shots. Trump is a useful idiot. Nothing more. His presence doesn't matter now that he's completed his primary objective, which was to get the GOP back in power.
that this is not the worst timeline was obvious to me.
It is the worst timeline of the two that were available to us. I'm not entertaining timelines in which aliens invade or Big Foot runs for governor. I was talking about the two realistic timelines diverging because of the 2024 election. I didn't think I needed to specify, but apparently I did for the contrarians out there.
you believe in timelines, but you believe there are only two at any specific moment?
Let it go. Being an edgelord isn't necessary here.
oh yeah. almost all Americans. but you know they voted for it so…
Here is where we agree. 2016 could be chalked up to people being desperate for change and choosing to gamble on an unknown. Although to anyone that bothered to know anything about Donald Trump, he wasn't an unknown and we knew it would be an awful mistake. And he didn't win the popular vote, so he was forced on us by a minority. However, in 2024, we gleefully placed him back in power with a majority. This is squarely on Americans and we absolutely deserve the suffering that's coming. People in other countries that will be affected by this don't though.
The good news is that no one is hurt more by conservative policy than poor, rural conservatives. But I'm sure they'll find someone else to blame once the real suffering sets in. They always do.
"I was talking about best case scenarios in reality, not fantasy."
what do you think scenarios are?
"Such as?"
Just to keep it simple, literally 4 years ago when everyone assumed Trump was inevitably going to win and was crying and making their silly little defeatist memes and comments, and then Biden kicked his ass and enacted remarkably progressive legislation that changed the country.
"Do you honestly think that matters now?"
of course it does.
you don't understand how the legal system works even at a basic level.
which you'll need to understand before you can comprehend the number of elements at play and the legal system and how they work together in real life and not the rain clouds you're tucking yourself under.
"Everything we've seen up to this point suggests that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes".
you are completely incorrect again.
he's a 34 time convicted felon, he's already had to pay $100 million and lost multiple court cases.
"not be held accountable for his crimes and that was BEFORE"
he literally was held accountable multiple times already and he's still under indictment in many cases with more upcoming.
Shoot, it'll be illegal for him to vote as soon as he's sentenced.
you're completely wrong and ignorant of his legal status and his past consequences.
"You can take me to the bank on that one."
you're bankrupt, you are already wrong on both false assumptions.
"What we are experiencing now is entirely unprecedented in U.S. history."
how?
that makes no sense.
you mean this one person was literally never elected to a second term at the exact moment in history?
I guess, but someone was going to be elected. turns out it was dumps.
"If Trump dies or becomes incapacitated, he is replaced by JD Vance and business as usual resumes. Nothing changes"
you're afraid, fine, but your fear doesn't mean anything is inevitable or futile.
think about all these basic facts you've been wrong about just talking to one guy on the internet.
you think it didn't matter that Hitler was the one who took control of Germany, that Napoleon was just a chance roll of the dice and anybody could have taken his place?
No, demagogues are a very specific type of people who act in a very specific way.
jd Vance would not have inspired a violent riot.
Trump specifically did.
The figurehead matters, you just lack the historical knowledge and context to see that.
you aren't saying anything valid, you're exhibiting anxiety and making demonstrably false assumptions.
"Has he, thus far, suffered the repercussions of these cases?"
Yes. again, he's out $100 million, with 400 more on the line, he's about to be sentenced for his felony convictions,his time is being wasted in court constantly. and more cases are coming up, wasting more of his time.
you're lucky i like teaching.
it's startling the amount you don't know while still willing to repeat certain tangentially related phrases you've heard before.
"It is the worst timeline of the two that were available to us"
again, it is illogical and absurd to believe in timelines and also believe there are only two.
expand your mind.
and seriously, try not to talk about things you have such limited knowledge about.
however cool you think empty cynical buzzwords are, they reflect poorly on you and render any points you're trying to make completely impotent.
or at least ask in a more respectful way.
you sound like you're pouting but desperate to learn more from me.
holding your breath until your face turns blue, but like peeking over your shoulder at me to make sure I'm watching haha.
you can just ask politely and I will explain how these things work or provide the historical context you lack.
you're not fooling anybody pretending you know anything about these subjects by making clearly false statements.
Ok, before I even get into this, are you aware that to the left of your question mark button is a button that has a right facing arrow, and if you put that right facing arrow in front of any of my quotes you don't have to put quotations marks around my quotes in your responses and it makes your comments WAY easier to read by separating them from mine with a visual marker? Allow me to teach you.
what do you think scenarios are?
I mean, there are realistic scenarios and non-realistic scenarios. When we're talking about an election and I say we ended up in the worst timeline, clearly I'm not talking about all possible fantastic timelines like all humans spontaneously growing a third arm on their foreheads.
Just to keep it simple, literally 4 years ago when everyone assumed Trump was inevitably going to win
But this isn't the same situation. Trump came out of left field and won and no one, including himself, was prepared. And he still managed to create significant chaos and implement changes that have long-term effects. But he also had the highest White House administration turnover rate in history. It wasn't an effective administration at all, which kept it from causing even more damage. Now they have had years to plan. Years to find the people they want in the positions they want them in. They have policy detailing how they're going to dismantle our government and rebuild it in their image. And they openly ran on that policy.
Pick up a history book. Hitler got curb stomped the first time he gained some power and went to prison. Had time to plan some things. Came back and took power and....well...yeah.
This is a much more concerted, detailed effort than the last unplanned for clusterfuck. It is guaranteed that they will do anything and everything while in TOTAL control of our government in order to prevent them from losing any future election. They have paths to effectively make it impossible for a Democrat win. Legislation can be passed to change gerrymandering rules to give them an even bigger advantage than they already have. They have made it abundantly clear that they have no concern for norms or rules in general if those rules don't benefit them.
you don’t understand how the legal system works even at a basic level.
Illuminate me. Please. Instead of just saying I don't, explain to me what I don't understand that makes anything I've said not a real, valid concern.
Laws only work if they are enforced. It is enshrined in our Constitution that presidents must divest from their businesses while in office. The Republican party flagrantly dismissed that directive for Donald Trump. Laws can be broken without repercussion if not enforced. They are now in control of all branches of our government. You think Republicans are going to enforce laws on themselves when we already know they're not willing to do so? Or that they won't legislate the laws that don't benefit them out of existence?
he’s a 34 time convicted felon, he’s already had to pay $100 million and lost multiple court cases.
Can you provide proof to me that he has already paid E. Jean Carroll $100 million? Losing a court case is not justice if there is no punishment actually enforced. Can you point to any actual repercussions that have actually taken place for Donald Trump for any crime he has committed in recent memory? I'm fully aware, as you are, that he was originally fined $5 million for raping E. Jean Carroll, and then fined an extra $90 million for defaming her. Can you provide proof that sum has already been paid to E. Jean Carroll?
he literally was held accountable multiple times already and he’s still under indictment in many cases with more upcoming.
Again, being held accountable is paying for your crimes, not having a judge read off your sentencing in a courtroom. And what do you believe will happen to his other cases now that he's been crowned king? There's really no way for us to know yet, but the likliehood that they will go away just skyrocketed. Because some of what he's indicted for comes with jail time if convicted. Do you honestly believe a sitting president, whose party now has total control of our government, will have to report to prison, especially with the SC's recent broad decision about presidential immunity?
you’re completely wrong and ignorant of his legal status and his past consequences.
Past consequences? Like, are we going back decades here? Like when he lost a case for discriminating against black renters decades ago? I'm talking about his modern crimes. What ACTUAL repercussions has he suffered? He pay that $100 mil yet?
how?
that makes no sense.
you mean this one person was literally never elected to a second term at the exact moment in history?
If you don't grasp how what we're experiencing is unprecedented in American history, I'm not sure how much I can help you.
We have a party that has been taken over by extremists. I've been around long enough to confirm to you that the Republican party now is absolutely not the Republican party of the past. It is being taken over by extremists. By conspiracy theorists. Their officials helped spread a lie about our democratic institutions that resulted in an attempted insurrection on our government. They voted not to certify the 2020 election. They ran a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who illegally attempted to overturn an election and ran on "dealing with the enemy within" and HE WON. That criminal and extremist party now fully controls our federal government.
THAT IS UNPRECEDENTED.
think about all these basic facts you’ve been wrong about just talking to one guy on the internet.
You haven't proven me wrong on a single thing. The only thing you stated was that I didn't know how our legal system worked without explaining to me why you think I'm wrong. Saying someone is wrong is not proving someone is wrong. You think I'm wrong about Trump not suffering consequences? He hasn't. Prove to me he has since first taking office in 2016.
The figurehead matters, you just lack the historical knowledge and context to see that.
Yes, and he already did his job and put his party back in power. Do you honestly think that all conservative policy and efforts stop when Trump dies? Are you insane? He wouldn't be who he is without the party that backed him. That party remains when he is gone and they've proven to be just as unethical and volatile as him BY SUPPORTING HIM UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
you’re lucky i like teaching.
Please don't do it professionally. You are extremely bad at it. You don't even know how to use basic keyboard functions that work on Lemmy or Reddit so your replies to me don't look like one long run on paragraph with no clear seprations between what you're saying and my quotes.
again, it is illogical and absurd to believe in timelines and also believe there are only two.
It's time to let this go. Being an edgelord never works in your favor when having a debate. Everyone but you understands what I was talking about. You're being a contrarian and that's only something people bad at debating do.
expand your mind.
Expand your knowledge regarding how to properly use this site's functions to make your replies not look like garbled trash.
you sound like you’re pouting but desperate to learn more from me.
I'm talking to a person so ignorant that they don't understand what's unprecedented about the political situation we find ourselves in. I assure you, I have nothing to learn from you.
“are you aware that…right facing arrow”
yup.
I’ll make a note of your difficulties though:
"confused by...quotation marks."
"Finds...own quotations...difficult to read…"
okay, got it.
“I’m not talking about all possible fantastic timelines”
you literally said “best-case scenario”
A few American 80-year-olds dying oh heart attacks is fairly realistic.
“Trump came out of left field…”
I can’t tell if you’re trying to paraphrase what I said or...I don’t see the point of this section at all. You’re agreeing with my point that sometimes things that seem inevitable are not inevitable.
“Illuminate me. Please. Instead of just saying I don’t, explain to me what I don’t understand that makes anything I’ve said not a real, valid concern.”
Sure.
A conservative majority is a problem, but does not create the inevitabilities you are worried about. Yes, things will likely get much worse for most people because Trump was elected, but importantly:
Is everything over and nobody can ever change anything again as you claim?
No, of course not, because inevitabilities are unfeasible in the real world.
You’re wallowing in a moment.
Time to move on.
“Laws only work if they are enforced.”
As they worked in extracting about a hundred million from Trump and convicting him 34 times.
“Can you provide proof to me that he has already paid E. Jean Carroll $100 million?”
He’s posted bond(paid the money) for those cases specifically(consequences of the legal system).
Here’s all the other major legal consequences to his ongoing cases. As mentioned, many are cases he is definitively unlikely to succeed in claiming as “presidential duties” as they happened out of office or are state cases not liable to federal oversight.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/what-happens-to-trump-criminal-cases/index.html
He’s spending time and money defending himself and so far, losing those cases. Those are consequences.
These cases are ongoing. You’re complaining about mights and maybes rather than the consequences he’s already faced that specifically disprove your “no consequences” theory.
“He pay that $100 mil yet?”
Yes, he did.
When you pay bond, you provide the money that is held in escrow until the completion of the appeals process.
“I’m not sure how much I can help you.”
No worries, I made that estimate a few comments back.
“HE WON.”
He won before. Four years later he lost, his policies were reversed and remarkably progressive legislation was passed.
“You haven’t proven me wrong on a single thing.”
a few things I have proved you wrong about:
- You believe Trump has faced no consequences. Trump is a convicted felon, legal sex offender, required to show up in court for years and spend his time and money and being sentenced(so far) to two payments to Carroll totaling 91 million bucks.
So you were wrong about that.
- You were wrong about best-case scenarios
3.wrong about the “king” thing
- wrong about the inevitability of Trump since he lost the 2020 election.
They’re are more, but...yea I did prove you wrong. A bunch.
“Do you honestly think that all conservative policy and efforts stop when Trump dies?”
No, this is counterintuitive to everything I’ve been teaching you about how government works.
I'll listen to your theory, though.
“You’re being a contrarian”
I’m correcting your inaccuracies. You are taking it personally, but these are facts and you have the facts wrong.
If you were speaking accurately or could back up your defeatist anxieties with facts, you would face fewer corrective statements.
“...how to properly use this site’s functions”
Quotations being inside quotation marks is confusing for you. Already noted that one above.
“I have nothing to learn from you.”
Enjoy those cave shadows.
Sorry, I refuse to continue responding to your uneducated garbage until you learn how to format your replies properly.
People aren't going to take you seriously if you can't put in the minimal amount of effort to learn how to properly use the tool you're attempting to use.
"I refuse to continue responding"
Thanks for telling me you aren't going to talk to me by sending me a really long message.
"People aren't going to take you seriously..."
I certainly haven't had this problem yet.
(you're the case in point, beeteedubs).
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Theoretically, probably not, practically, and in real life, most probably definitely yes.
Yes. Constitutionally, the threat of impeachment is supposed to prevent that.
I don't think so.
But if it's like any other norm-breaking violation we've seen him make, he will do it anyway, there will be legal challenges, they will ultimately be fruitless, he will suffer no consequences, and everyone will go along with it.
It's legally unclear if he's able to pardon himself for state crimes. He's the president of the United States, not the president of New York.
But I hope he tries to pardon himself for anything, just so we can get this before the Supreme Court, because I think they would side with him but I sure want to see it play out. In reality he's in such bad health and so old that I think he's probably going to die before he would face any prison time, so the best we can hope for is that the Supreme Court makes greater fools of themselves, or somehow miraculously surprises us and does the right thing, which I don't expect but you know it's theoretically possible.
yes
Don't know, but we're gonna find out. Exciting times. Oh, and get ready to pay 3x as much for your internet access, and to have all torrent sites nuked from orbit.
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