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What's funny about this is you're going a long way to imply the father was a fascist/Nazi, when growing up in Alabama in the 50's is all that's needed to turn a child into a racist, fascist piece of shit.
Heritage foundation isn't a Nazi respawn. It's the American born and bred fascists who have been in America all along. Either way it doesn't matter. They're fascists through and through, no different to the nazi's.
growing up in Alabama in the 50’s is all that’s needed to turn a child into a racist, fascist piece of shit
Alabama was the birthplace of the modern Civil Rights Movement, from Montgomery to Birmingham to Selma. A little unfair to assert it was a state that just makes people racist. The neo-confederates of the post-Depression Era had to work pretty hard to keep cramming Jim Crow down people's throats decade after decade.
That said, Huntsville Alabama circa 1950 was most notable for Redstone Arsenal, home to the Marshall Space Flight Center. The center was founded through Operation Paperclip, a project to export German rocket scientists to the United States and pump them for their expertise in the field.
A guy with a Nazi mother and White-Russian father who emigrated to a city built around the famous rocketry lab was almost certainly influenced by the German brand of fascist ideology.
That said, the Germans got their strain of fascism from Fordist antisemitism pumped into the country after WW1. So if you're going to pick a state to blame for The Heritage Foundation's brand of white nationalist hate, you'd be better off pointing the finger at Michigan.
Alabama was the birthplace of the modern Civil Rights Movement, from Montgomery to Birmingham to Selma.
I mean, isn't that because the core of the movement was persecuted black Southerners? Alabama having enough of thise guys to kickstart the movement feels like more of an indictment than praise.
It's like saying the birthplace of antifascism was Fascist Germany or Italy... Like, yeah... It be like it do, because of how it did?
It’s like saying the birthplace of antifascism was Fascist Germany or Italy…
Post-WW1 Italy had one of the largest and most active Communist Parties in Europe. I don't think it is reasonable to say "Italians are just fascist because of where they grew up" when you've got an enormous contrary datapoint. Neither is it reasonable to say Alabama produces racists ex nihilo. In the case of Redstone Arsenal, the federal government effective created a Fascist Reservation System and cultivated European extremist refugees like it was some kind of political petri dish.
I mean, isn’t that because the core of the movement was persecuted black Southerners?
You could find persecuted black workers from California to New York to Florida in 1963. Alabama wasn't notable in that regard.
The movement that the nascent 50s civil rights movement tapped into in Alabama was a large socio-economic network of majority-minority townships, allied churches, and civic organizations that the white nationalist state was already struggling to control. Much like with Rosewood, Florida and Tulsa, Oklahoma, the problem in Alabama was that too many black residents were doing too well.
The response to the 60s Civil Rights Movement along the Gulf Coast was to demolish a lot of that black wealth, export jobs overseas, and lynch a lot of those young black leaders.
A guy with a Nazi mother and White-Russian father who emigrated to a city built around the famous rocketry lab was almost certainly influenced by the German brand of fascist ideology.
You linked a source saying his mother was German, not that she was a Nazi. His father also did not move straight to Huntsville in 1951 according to this post, he retired there over a decade later after having worked in ~~Florida~~ Jacksonville (thanks to derfunkatron for the correction).
You linked a source saying his mother was German, not that she was a Nazi.
I linked a source saying she was a German refugee from 1945 who emigrated to a township staffed full of Nazi emigres. Also, his father was White Russia - 100% a fascist.
Or the zionists
Not sure why most commenters are shitting on you. It is an interesting possibility. The apple not falling far from the tree is an expression for a reason.
Yeah it's almost kinda weird how defensive people are getting with this.
Because they're making huge unfounded leaps of logic and then doing things like accusing people of defending Nazis for questioning the logic
I read almost every reply. The general tone of responses are "you can't prove that so be quiet! Also I'm smarter than you"
That seems like a very uncharitable way to describe people pointing out that OP hasn't actually presented any evidence and has seemingly misread their own source. I think there needs to be something stronger than "was a Russian emigrant who was unaccounted for after the Axis invaded his home" to call someone a member of the Nazi party
You left out the fact that the son has been actively implementing the Nazi agenda in the US. I think that makes it a bit more plausible.
I left it out because I don't think that we should use the activities of someone's child to accuse them of doing a separate wrong thing long before the the child was even born. Every single Nazi ever was the child of someone
Buddy, that is not how ideology works. If a guy is doing nazi things, speculating is fair game. If there are circumstantial things, we'll talk about it.
Go write angry letters to the National Enquirer if you don't like this stuff, internet commenters aren't exactly the biggest fish to fry.
Read through as well, it does seem like OP is wrong. Can't assume all anti-Communists are Nazis, and the records that do exist don't put him in suspicious places for the timeline. I can understand the desire to make connections to explain his son's views, though.
There’s no need to prove that Spakovsky’s father was a Nazi to explain or hold Spakovsky accountable for his beliefs and actions. Any attempt to do so is a waste of time and a distraction. It also echoes the idea that children inherit the sins of their parents, which I believe is in line with authoritarian thought.
An interesting counter example:
Stephen Miller was born in California, is Jewish, specifically descended from Eastern Europeans who escaped pogroms, the grandchild of immigrants, and the child of democrats one of which was a social worker. Why is he acting so much like a fascist and a key member of an administration that apparently hates California, democracy, social programs, and is hell bent on starting its own anti-immigrant pogroms?
Judge a piece of shit for who they are, not because they come from a long line of pieces of shit.
I totally agree. Only mentioned the connection because that might be the motivation OP had to look into this or make this post.
Regarding Stephen Miller, though, or more broadly any child of people who undergo traumatic events, suffering often begets more suffering. That's why we have so many quips like "hurt people hurt people". It may be that his views are a rebellion against his family's for one reason or another.
Also nothing changes that he's a piece of shit, but y'know.
It's really hard to find somewhat accurate information on this guy. He seems to have been part of the White Army fighting the bolsheviks until the left for Yugoslavia. He taught there until 1941, when Germany invaded Yugoslavia. He stayed in the country until 1942 or 1945 (unclear), when he left for Bavaria. If the latter, it's possible he tried to avoid Operation Keelhaul which would have seen him forcibly repatriated to the Soviet Union.
After the war he was in an American-run camp for displaced German peoples, where he met Hans mother. They left for the US in 1950/1951 and settled in Huntsville. Since he was connected to the University of Alabama (and was a professor in sociology before the war), it seems likely that he was somewhat connected to Von Braun, who was also important in elevating the UoA.
Interestingly, it's said that Von Braun and his fellow German scientists were more progressive than the Americans there. Von Braun was threatened by the KKK for a while because he hired black people.
But the timeline is shaky. Hans claims that his dad fought communists in Russia and Yugoslavia (specifically Tito's), but it's unclear when he did so. If he left for Germany in 1942 he couldn't have fought Tito's communists because he wasn't around.
Presumably if he was around in this period, he likely due to his nobleman origin would have been part of the Chetniks, who had a complicated relationship with the Axis. Not quite Nazis, but plenty of war crimes to go around still.
But the most credible source I could find claims he left for Germany in 1942, seemingly making it impossible for him to have been part of the Chetniks. Which raises the question: who did he even fight, if anyone at all? He seems to have consistently moved towards areas where there was less or no fighting at the time (and that he could actually move to). It's not impossible that he tried to avoid the wars once they reached his doorstep. He was also an anti-communist, which at least could explain the move to Yugoslavia and to Germany if it happened in 1945.
I'm not sure if based on these fragile timelines we can conclusively say or suggest he was part of the Nazis, Chetniks or any other group. The gap in his resume could well be explained by the fact that it's an academic resume, likely leaving things off if they weren't relevant to his academic career. Had he worked in a factory in that time for example, it probably wouldn't have been listed either.
We do know that his son's a fascist shitstain though. Whether he himself was a Nazi is highly unclear given the contradicting timelines and statements.
Von Braun and his fellow German scientists were more progressive than the Americans there.
Most of the Americans there would have been fascist shit stains. But let's be very clear, there is no way in hell Von Braun deserves the title of more progressive than any other racist shit stain while hiding from justice after performing horrific Nazi experiments on human beings. A Nazi shit stain is a Nazi shit stain. It might not have been your intention, but it just really rubs me the wrong way to hear anybody try and paint this monster in any kind of positive light.
The reason he was hidden in Huntsville vs somewhere more progressive, is bc it was the middle of nowhere and the U.S. government wanted to keep him and the atomic technology he was helping to create, a secret. This is also why it would be a very strange coincidence for Von Spakovsky to end up in Huntsville of all places.
I don't believe a word his son says about him, but I'd love to read any info you may have found in addition to his son's rose colored memories.
I'm particularly interested in reading this report that is mentioned in a citation footnote from an article titled ‘What Did You Do during the War?’
Berezino district party committee report on the case of Ia. A. Shpakovskii, 24 May 1946
It might not have been your intention, but it just really rubs me the wrong way to hear anybody try and paint this monster in any kind of positive light.
Von Braun was a Nazi and likely committed war crimes, most likely the usage of forced labour. But ultimately he himself did not seem to hold the Nazi ideology that close to heart. He was especially alienated after his arrest by the Gestapo.
The man lacked principles, and seemed fine with using slave labour as long as he could play rocketman. A shitstain, sure. Nonetheless, he doesn't appear to have held any (strong) racial prejudices, afaik not even antisemitism or something.
What I was pointing out is that the shitstains in Alabama were even more racist than the former Nazi immigrants were. So even if Hans turned out to be a racist shitstain, that might not necessarily be because his dad was; it might also be caused by the racists that were around during his upbringing.
I'm not sure what that citation you mentioned contains, but the context it's used in makes it a little ambiguous:
Appealing to the authorities to reclaim property that people believed was unlawfully taken by local officials in the weeks right after the war was also dangerous. After all, investigations would ensue, which could backfire on those who had sought justice from the state. When F. Borisevich from Slutsk (eastern Belorussia) wrote a letter to Ponomarenko, complaining that NKVD officers had taken several of her possessions, among them money and clothes, the Slutsk authorities began to look into the issue. They found out that Borisevich’s husband had been arrested in 1937 and sentenced to forced labor. During the war, Borisevich had shared a house with two local policemen—one of them her grandson, who stole from “partisan and Jewish families.” Slutsk authorities concluded that she had acquired most of her possessions unlawfully during the war, and they decided to pass the case on to a higher court
So either dad did steal from partisans or Jews, or he was merely tried for doing so after seeking justice from authorities. The timeline is weird though, when would this case have taken place? In 1945 he had already left for Germany, so how was he tried by the Soviets? Or was he tried in his absence? Or is that citation referring to a different person?
Spakovsky ended up in Huntsville, likely to join the rest of the Germans who went there. He was a sociologist, not a rocket scientist, so maybe not a priority for operation Paperclip or something.
https://time.com/archive/6935350/the-rocket-mans-dark-side/
For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, “That is clear sabotage.” His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, “von Braun was directly involved in hangings.”
It seems kinda difficult to easily buy the rosy narrative of von Braun, but also be so skeptical that something seems off about Spakovsky's missing 9 years. The footnote cites his report as a similar case, not the case cited in the text. So does that make him similar to the accused woman? Possibly similar to the woman's grandson who had been a collaborator and the reason she was accused? If Ia A Shpakovskii in the case is actually Anatolli Ignatevich Shpakovskii, it would be interesting to know what he was accused of.
I really haven't delved into this subject, but I have a theory
Maybe the kind of racism that SS Germans hold is different from the racism that is prevalent in the US.
The SS would view any non-Aryan, meaning most Americans, on the same level regardless of skin tone. Blacks from Missouri, Metis, Cajun, Mennonite would all be the same.
So the KKK would have their panties in a twist about the black Americans on staff, crying that Braun hired animals, while Braun would be confused because from his perspective, he only has animals to hire.
This could be a very funny key and Peele sketch, like a no true Scotsman but who's more racist.
Again I haven't looked into the Nazi perspective justifying their racism so I might be way off the mark.
Your citation there shows von Braun being a total shitstain, but not necessarily a racist shitstain. He lacked morals and principles, and used slave labour; but it doesn't seem like he cared much about who the slaves were. So he doesn't seem to have ended up having any qualms about hiring black people. I suppose it makes him slightly more progressive, but not necessarily any less of a bad person.
Regarding Shpakovskii, it's unclear what he was accused or convicted of, and it's unclear if whatever the allegations were were also true. But given the example provided, it seems the worst thing he could be getting accused of there is stealing from partisans/Jewish people, which is bad but not a war crime (assuming his case is indeed 'similar' to the example provided in that text).
I'm not sure we can figure out what this guy did exactly with just online sources, I can't exactly find much more on the man. Given the evidence, he could in theory have been a Chetnik, which would fit his motivations and background. Being a full-blown Nazi seems less likely. That doesn't mean he wasn't involved in any war crimes, but there's currently nothing that suggests that he was.
At first I thought you were implying the dad was a part of Operation Paperclip. But that would require Nazis to have recruited an ethnic Slav for missile work.
Then I wonder if you're implying dad might have been a Soviet spy targeting the stuff in Huntsville. And that seems more plausible. Under that scenario it is likely that significant parts or all of the refugee story are real, and that can be fashioned into decent cover.
And then it's also plausible that there is no meaning, and a refugee settling in Huntsville is mere coincidence.
By the looks of the dates he left Yugoslavia when the Axis attacked, which seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do
"Settled in Yugoslavia after WWI" means White Russian, so not really Soviet agent material.
Operation Paperclip
So the idea of apolitical nazi scientists just working on rockets is kinda not true when you look closer, but the real meat is Operation Bloodstone, where nazi officers were brought over snd given immunity to help run anticommunist programs.
I went to Paperclip because of the connection to Huntsville specifically with Redstone and NASA.
I don't know if you can really call Huntsville a small town? It's a city of almost a million people, including the suburbs around it.
