Ask Lemmy

You tried to hit on a younger lady by saying she looks good naked, then tried to back track it by saying it was about her tattoos. If it was just about the tattoos you would've said "I like your tattoos". If this was a dude who had cool tattoos you would've have phrased it like that at all.

You balked about being accused of sexually harassing her but my guy, you did. It's pretty clear you thought she was hot and you shot your shot.

And then you flubbed the apology, basically said it's your nature to do that (so it says that you don't think you can change), and then at the end were saying that it felt like she was trying to get you to see her side, and dismissed it by saying you think it should have been a two way street.

So look at all this from an outside perspective. Old letch comes up to young lady, takes something from her, says he's watched her naked and likes it. Back in the day someone would've punched the guy. She asks for the thing back and the guy makes excuses. No apologies, just "it's my nature" and "you got it wrong", not "I'm sorry I made you uncomfortable"

Dude sees the old guy in his naked hot box and steps in because the guy was a creep and it's his hot box anyway, and the creep tries to get the girl alone and then goes off and sulks when kicked out.

Then when she sees him again at the river, she tries to explain her feelings, and he just makes the same excuses.

Does that sound as good?

So here's how you fucked up.

• don't ever compliment someone on something they didn't choose. No one chooses their body. People choose their clothing and tattoos. Those are fair to compliment. Saying she looks nice naked isn't.

• Apologies involve understanding how you made the other person upset, recognizing it and acknowledging it, trying to make amends and then trying not to do that again. You did not apologize, you made excuses. Saying sorry isn't a full apology. You needed to listen to her instead of a two way street.

• being sulky and feeling like the police guy was being mean to you sucks, but you did creep on someone, in an atmosphere that was ready to blow because of someone else being a creep. To a woman. All things considered him kicking you out of his own sauna was mild, and the lady was clearly done talking to you because she didn't say it was ok. It sounds like you had repeated your side enough that the guy had heard it already.

-you watched him get a massage from her? You sounded pouty and jealous about it.

• I grew up going to these sorts of things. I can tell you that it was still inappropriate given the setting.

So here's my advice. I've let you have it so this is the nice part. This is not an insult. Don't take it as an insult.

You have autism. I'm certain of it.

The way you acted, the way you reacted, the lack of social awareness, the way you explained things in this post, being scared afterwards, etc. All signs point to autism. Especially if you're older and acting this way.

Being autistic isn't a shameful things and if you were never diagnosed there was support that you could've had that was denied you.

If you want to go back to this event next year, I STRONGLY suggest that you get checked out for autism, and if you do have it, that is basically the ONLY way you're going to salvage this situation with these people. "I'm sorry about last year, I'm sorry I upset you, I found out I'm autistic so I screwed up" is probably the only thing that can come out of your mouth that would make younger people less pissed at you at this point.

It might help you a lot and I know older people balk at the idea of even being checked, but I really think you should, it'll help you out a lot.

I was in this situation the chicks side. Not exactly, but close enough.

I was living and working in the woods. After work some of us were chilling by a lake in swimsuits, one of my camp friends mentioned I had noticeable abs, so I was like fuck yeah. A few of us complimented each other on how tanned and defined we got over the summer. The older coworker walked by, said my body looked great, very beautiful. Mic drop, we all stared at him.

I said "Creepy." Not articulate, no. But I was instantly uncomfortable. He said "How?" and we told him to just leave.

Yes, we were young women showing skin and glistening in the sun. But we weren't thinking of being sexy for anyone (who didn't already know) in that moment. He took our ease and comfort and made it about his pleasure.

He tried to talk to me about it later, alone. I was cordial. Respectful. Because I wanted that conversation to end, because trying to explain the nuances of the female experience just wasn't landing for him. His explanation was about me understanding what he thought and meant, not how I felt. To my friends? I said he was a fucking creep who wouldn't drop it. He complained that I made it weird because one of my friends told him to stop trying to talk to me.

Women aren't trying to be pretty for you, don't make it about you. If you fuck up, as people do, just back off and accept that you fucked up. The camp police guy probably knew more about her honest opinion than you were ever going to get. Might have gone a bit overboard in some misguided attempt to "protect" the chick he liked, but you sound like you can't take a hint.

Don't get me wrong please, I know I'm just an old fart and I have no intentions whatsoever, but I just wanted to say that I think you're very pretty - especially naked.

Even before you said it, you knew it was inappropriate. That's why you tried to excuse it even as you were saying it. I read the rest of your post but it only convinced me you're not taking ownership and are now retconning your own intentions. You meant to hit on her and backtracked when she didn't reciprocate.

I'm closer to your age than hers. Yes it's creepy to tell someone half your age that they look good naked. Yes even if it's a nude friendly event. It's not assault, that's a stretch. But you could have said something more like "noticed your tattoos when we were at the sauna, I love them!" if you absolutely had to comment on her appearance.

In general - it's unlikely a young woman, in any setting, will appreciate comments about her body from strangers. Even if actively working on said body at the gym. There just is no call for that unless they are a close friend and you know them well enough to know it's ok.

To be completely honest here, and I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but it doesn’t sound like you’re actually sorry for what you did. You’ve only been trying to tell her that her interpretation was wrong. You definitely said something sexualizing to her in a very inappropriate situation. If you can’t genuinely recognize that the entirety of the problem was you in that scenario, then you should 100% leave her alone.

The fact that everyone actually involved in the situation thinks you’re in the wrong should be a pretty big hint to you here. We’ve only gotten your side of the story, and even then I can tell you’re the problem here.

With that being said, yeah you fucked up, but it wasn’t that big of a fuck up. I think you can come back from it if a. you genuinely apologize and realize that the problem was not a misinterpretation, but your inappropriateness, and b. make a genuine effort to not say inappropriate things in a situation like that in the future.

I think you’re very pretty - especially naked.

Something I've learned about compliments, in general, is to be specific. Like, even outside of the nudity, just "I think you're very pretty" is rather a poor compliment. Leaving it open-ended like that plays into what others have said in this thread, that it can be interpreted negatively.

In this case, the obvious alternative in my mind is "I really like your tattoos." That even opens up the opportunity for a conversation about how she got them and what they mean to her. You could could also complement her hair, as you mentioned you appreciated that as well.

asked her if she’d allow me to explain my obvious fuck-up

This is a very natural reaction on your part, and comes from a good place: you've recognized that you've caused someone pain/harm, and want to help alleviate it. Unfortunately, when it comes to topics where sexuality is involved, I don't think there's any scenario where it helps. Not unless they come to you seeking an apology/explanation. The most helpful thing for most people, in this scenario, is to have a little contact as possible with the person who made them uncomfortable. Even if you're being genuine about this, most people aren't.

I tried to explain to X again that I wasn’t sexualising her in any way

I think this is especially not going to help, because it's not an apology. A real, genuine apology for a situation like this involves you recognizing that you did, in fact, do wrong to someone (which, again, in this case, I think you do recognize), so an apology HAS to focus on that.

For me, a true apology has to consist of 3 things:

• Contrition (I.E. "I'm sorry")
• Understanding (what you did that was wrong, and how it was wrong)
• Amends (what/how you're going to do better in the future)

Focusing on explaining your side of the story screws up the "understanding" part. It makes it about what SHE did wrong ("you reacted without knowing the full story") instead of what YOU did wrong ("I didn't consider that my words would make you uncomfortable"). Alternatively, it's "you shouldn't be feeling this way, because you don't know the whole story" instead of "I shouldn't have made you feel this way". Even though that's not what you meant to say, that's an entirely understandable way to interpret it.

Explaining your side of the story can still be part of this, but it comes under the "Amends" category. I.E. "I wasn't trying to sexualize you, so I need to work on avoiding sexualizing language" or "I need to work on choosing my words more carefully, I should be able to compliment someone without it coming off as a sexual thing."

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. If everything you've told us is accurate, I think you're genuinely a fine person, and you just need to file this one away as a learning experience, the best you can. Nothing more to be done about it now.

I'm a woman and I've been going to the sauna since I was pretty young. So I had my fair share of encounters with creepy old dudes commmenting on my body. Never and I mean NEVER have I experienced it that a comment on my body, any comment, and if it's just about my hair, did not end with a hand on some private part of my body. I get a comment on my body, 100% of the time it's a sleezy older guy trying to fuck.

Someone saying "you are beautiful especially naked" would 100% translate to me as "I've been ogling you for some time and probably jerked off to you and want to fuck you." If you found her tattoos cool, you could say "cool tattoos". But you told her just hooow much you LOVE looking at her naked body and there's no way that isn't sexual. From the way you describe her in your text here I also don't believe you that you didn't have other intentions.

Several people even told you it was inappropriate. There was also no need whatsoever to start a discussion with Y. It was his sauna and obviously he wanted X to enjoy it without being oggled by you.

None of this would have been even half as much of a problem if you could just a) not comment on other people's naked bodies and b) just accept that you made someone uncomfortable and not approach them again. If it's a stranger you aren't going to see again there's just no reason to talk to them again.

I've been to a few 'clothing optional' events in my time - and this is how I have successfully navigated those events:

• Don't talk to a naked woman unless SHE initiates the conversation.
• Don't make ANY comments about a naked woman's appearance unless SHE comments about yours FIRST.
• Keep your eyes on a naked woman's FACE.

Is this stupid and unfair? Yes. Have I ever been asked to leave one of these events, or gotten into any trouble? No. If you can't handle it, don't go to these types of events.

First of all, don't comment on people's bodies, especially in a situation where there is nudity. If you think her tattoos are nice, just say "your tattoos are very cool/beautiful/well done". This is not commenting on her body, but commenting on her choices.

Second, if she expressed to you she felt uncomfortable, then just leave her alone. Don't try to defend yourself. You have no control over how she feels about your actions, but you do have control over your own actions, so leave her alone.

Additionally, their perceived relationship is none of your business. She expressed to you that you made her uncomfortable. He expressed to you that you made her uncomfortable. Leave her alone.

I guess, just imagine if someone who you didn't particularly find atttactive but was friendly, said the same thing to you.

You would suddenly feel a little less liberated in your nudity, and perhaps feel the need to avoid that person, even if their intentions were not impure.

I think you meant well, and you added the nudity part to your compliment because it was such a new and profound way to suddenly see something beautiful.

Nudity usually takes on an erotic undertone, so it may genuinely have been a eureka moment for you to see something naked and beautiful outside that erotic context.

Unfortunately that undertone is there, no matter your intention, and I know you want to defend your intentions, but you would be digging a hole by doing so.

No need to spiral into complete self-doubt on whether you're a good person or not. You know your intentions, you just goofed up on the delivery and unfortunately that made someone feel less secure.

It's a learning experience, and you seem keen to learn, and I think just tread a bit more carefully in the future.

Thanks for sharing your story by the way, I feel like I've learned from it a bit myself

I don't think any comments mentioning body are appropriate in a naturalist setting. You didn't mean to comment on her body so why didn't you say "I like your tattoos" why did you refer to her body?

Soft asshole for that, but she is also a soft asshole for ignoring you after you explained your intention. Though I don't blame her, it could easily be made up on your part, she has no way of knowing which comment is genuine from you.

If she felt so uncomfortable that she had to get Y to confront you, why would she feel comfortable enough with you to have a conversation afterwards. Very strange imo. I wonder if she did believe you but once Y got involved she lost control of the situation and is not able/willing to confront Y.

Stop being weird challenge: impossible

Personally I think your ending statement sounds correct. Yeah you fucked up but you're acknowledging it. The self appointed cop sounds like a real prick, I've met the type. You said early on there were no leaders out there, yet this guy decides to call himself an authority. Sounds like he only made things worse, maybe the two of you could have come to a better understanding together. Or not. But a possibility at least.

There is one other thing I wanted to comment on - she said you had no right to comment on her body like that and you're saying she misunderstood what "that" was. Give her the benefit of the doubt. Assume she understands correctly and work your thoughts from that standpoint. Things will be easier that way, I feel.

camp police

Yeah, you were a bit clumsy in your wording but perfectly right

Especially after trying to explain yourself multiple times. That camp police dude is just a wannabe white knight.

So, you said you’re about 60ish. The rules have absolutely changed in even just the last 20 years. It is rude to compliment someone on something they don’t have control over, i.e. their height, their face, their figure, anything like that. It’s fine to complement people on things they do have control over: tattoos, clothing, hairstyle, a talent they’ve obviously been working on.

You were maybe not aware that it’s no longer OK to comment on peoples bodies for any reason, so it didn’t occur to you to be careful with your language when expressing that you liked the tattoos that were visible when she was unclothed. And also that even though the combination of body and tattoos is what was particularly striking that that’s not an OK thing to talk about in any context really, especially in a setting meant to be a safe space for people to be nude.

This reminds me of a time in a social activism space when a dear sweet gentleman in his 80s was making a very good, valid, thoughtful point but unfortunately, used the word “Negroes” when he obviously should’ve said Black people. He was corrected in a very unkind manner and it became a whole thing. He felt terrible, he meant no harm, but he said the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It doesn’t make you a bad person. It was a social faux pas. You will cringe when you think of it, but who doesn’t have those little gems stored away in their pockets.

This was not any sort of nudist camp though.

Sure sounds like it was. And nudists are weird.

Some small children, too.

Yep, weird.

I (male) am in the upper regions of this bracket

That makes you, in the eyes of the weird, weird.

I had my misgivings about forcing him to leave.

And that whole situation, if all the other weird shit wasn't already enough, that should have been your cue to behave as though a nun were constantly present, scowling at you, slapping a ruler into her palm. You did not, ergo I agree with JASN, you deserved this.

Sorry man, but next time you want to hang with the weirdos, ask yourself constantly whether you vibe with the weirdos.

Mwah, I'm honestly unsure about the gravity of this situation. I see it very much as a "don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity" at worst.

You're in a nudist type setting, don't get all "violated" when someone saw your naked body and has a sexual thought, it happens, we are human ffs.

Saying it out loud like that might be indeed socially not acceptable, fine, but to call it "I feel violated" is a huge overstatement that damages all those women who really were violated in life.

Someone thought you were pretty, take the damn compliment. I'm saying that as a husband whose wife 100% would have taken the compliment, and then go on with her life.

If you're in a nudist place, people will see you naked. People are human, humanda have sexual desires and sexual feelings. This, for you, wasn't even sexual to begin with, so I seriously don't see the issue