Holy poop you are coming on wrong and hard. I don't know if the shooter conservative or not, but you desperately don't want him to be. Probably because it would look bad for you if he was.

You're not interested in the truth, just a narrative.

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I'm challenging the certainty of this entire site. My personal opinion is that he is a broken product of a nihilistic culture. I also think that he hated Charlie because he thought Charlie hated gays even though he was a big tent conservative that was inclusive for all. What people don't understand is that Kirk WAS the moderate conservative.

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Kirk was definitionally a fascist.

As for what the shooter is, I'm sure time will tell. I don't see a need to jump to conclusions on that yet.

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Who's somebody on the right that's not a fascist in your view? The craziest thing is that people are calling him a Nazi when one of the biggest goals of his organization was to stake a big tent and prevent people from being radicalized. He was a "constitutionalist" milquetoast conservative. With him being killed now his audience will certainly go further right.

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

That is kinda a strange way to counter my point that he is definitionally a fascist. Are you saying that if enough people are fascist then the none of them are?

I am saying that the rhetoric that Kirk used fits the definition of fascist rhetoric. If everyone in the world meets that definition, then everyone in the world is fascist. That's how definitions work.

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

Kirk believed in a constitutional republic and Presidential elections. He was also, due to being a Christian, positionally anti-LGBT but not antagonistic to them. This position is hardly something new. He welcomed them into his movement and has plenty of gay fans. He held classically right wing positions which some may find objectionable but nonetheless cling fervently to a liberal world order. Fascism is inherently anti-liberal.

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I missed some of your points because I made bad assumptions and overlooked some things.

I'm not surprised that at some point in time he would say he was pro-liberal. But the positions he argued for were in support of fascism. He didn't other just gay people. He othered Muslims. He has brought up the Jewish question. He is a fan of centralizing power. Not that centralizing a power by itself would be a strong indicator of fascism. You have to take a look at the big picture.

There are several statistical lies that he keeps repeating to maintain his position. Someone is popular and is well known as Kirk would surely have people able to quietly correct him on some of these things. Yet he keeps repeating them. The outcome of this rhetoric is to empower fascists. He very likely knew that.

Now I'm not saying he was rubbing together his hands and whispering to himself "good good". I think he just followed the money.

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

He didn't say he was liberal I'm saying he was inherently classically liberal because of his views on the constitution, individual rights etc. He believed in representative democracy (e.g. a republic).

Again I implore you for your definition of fascism.

"Othering" isn't fascist. It just is. We are the society we are because we are not the society we aren't. This is the case with any group. If not being cool with literally everything makes you a fascist then everyone is fascist. He's right to question why we send so much money to Israel that's just having a brain. I guess AOC is a fascist too because she is anti-genocide.

I don't know what youre talking about in the last part but everyone lies with statistics all the time. If you found statistics to counter that statement you'd be lying. When it comes to statistics "lying" is often times simply an interpretation or spin you disagree with. Of course some one can tell a bald faces lie but I haven't seen that with him.

Followed the money

If he was just doing what got him paid that doesn't make him a fascist it makes him a grifter. A fascist is an ideologue with a very specific non-liberal worldview. He was an egalatarian that wanted to settle differences through debate. That is a far cry from someone marching around in jackboots looking for a victim.

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 1 points 5 days ago

The definition of fascism doesn't start when they put on the boots. It doesn't end when they take the boots off. Just because Kirk never killed anyone doesn't mean he isn't complicit in creating a system that would kill lots of people.

You can be both a grifter and a fascist. Especially if you grift for a fascist cause.

You can be call a fascist even if ideologically you're not, but the outcomes you produce are fascistic. This is the category I think Kirk is in.

Would we stop calling Hitler a fascist if we found out that he actually just wanted to be friends with everyone and he didn't actually care about killing all those Jews? He just failed spectacularly.

Sorry about this second thread. It's all my fault. I have answered your question on what I use to determine fascism in the other thread.

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I didn't imply the entire right was fascist. I think a lot of them are. But I also think a lot of them aren't. I also think some lefties are fascists. I think some liberals are fascists. I think some black people are fascist. I think some Jewish people are fascist. I think some Palestinians are fascist. Name a group of people, I guarantee you some percentage of them are fascist. It's an easy ideology to fall into. It feels comfortable.

I'll write this again in case you missed it the first time. Fascism has a definition. There are criteria to categorize. What is fascist's behavior, What are fascist beliefs, what is fascist ideology.

You want so badly for me to be some crazy leftist who calls everyone a fascists without cause. But I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm intentionally calling Kirk a fascist. Because he meets the definition. I'm not saying it hatefully, I'm not saying it with emotion. It's just 1+1=2. The sky is blue. The grass is green. Kirk is a fascist.

[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

What is the definition you are using?

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 1 points 5 days ago

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism by Lawrence Britt

https://osbcontent.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/PC-00466.pdf

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

~~Kirk was definitionally a fascist.

As for what the shooter is, I'm sure time will tell. I don't see a need to jump to conclusions on that yet.~~

Edit: duplicate post due to lag. Please ignore