Asklemmy

OP was banned from Memes@lemmy.ml for trying to push the "Chinese spy balloons" thing and posted this thread to cry about it.

https://toast.ooo/post/8921520/12351143

Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.

Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it's not a "disinformation campaign," nor is it organized. It's because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES ("Actually Existing Socialism"), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North's imperialism.

In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn't rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn't because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.

As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it's the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it's rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.

If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here's my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!

As a Chinese person it's actually really refreshing to not be inundated with western propaganda. Here's some examples that come to mind:

The US quietly admitting the "Spy Balloon" did no spying several months and millions of dollars later.

People are actually moving into "ghost cities" as it pre-emptively neutralized a housing crisis before it began

China's social credit system is actually extremely benign and fragmented while aiming to target businesses and businessmen, tracking bankruptcies, scams and reneged deals and so on.

But you'll get people too propagandized to accept truth even if, for example, all the sources you provide are from reliable Western media

Time for the weekly question as to why there are anti-imperialists on the anti-imperialist platform from a redditor who joined less than a month ago

China is literally the only hope humanity has to survive climate change at this point and if you're not aware of that you're ignorant, sorry

"Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?"

"No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda"

In a very simplified answer: China and Russia (as well as Iran) never made any thinly-veiled threats of turning my hometown of Johannesburg into the next Gaza.

lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it

Given the political leanings of Lemmy's lead developers, and relatedly the whole reason why Lemmy started development in the first place, it should not be surprising to anyone that many Lemmy users have since the very beginning of Lemmy's existence had stances that could be called, in a word, "pro-Russia" or "pro-China".

The problem arises when people who don't hold these views look at them only through their own myopic biases, where, rather than genuinely interrogating why people might hold these attitudes, they instead more readily believe that a social media platform that most people have never even heard of is actually crawling with paid actors trying to influence public opinion.

No, to understand my own views on Russia, you need to understand my views on Atlanticism; to understand my views on Atlanticism, you need to understand my views on class, among other things. None of that comes across clearly in a one-liner or a four-panel meme. I'm sure I could discuss it in a more fitting space provided I'm not too drained of energy from having stayed up until five in the morning for the umpteenth time.

What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?

🌍🧑‍🚀🔫🧑‍🚀 Always has been. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Lemmy#History

Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.

The EU is sometimes worse than China and some parts of the US are often worse than Russia. The US (both parties) and the EU have been aiding & abetting a genocide in Palestine.

Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?

It’s not organized and it’s not disinformation. Those are coming from inside the house.

Short answer: Many people support those governments critically or uncritically for various reasons.

Long answer:

Russia: Some people who oppose US hegemony support Russia as probably the most effective anti-US actor globally - I mean look at what they've managed (in part) to do to the US government over the last 10 years or so. They may also be sympathetic to Russian anti-NATO sentiment. People who support China may also critically support Russia since they are a strategic ally of China. Some people just full-throatedly support Russia uncritically - I don't know why they're quite so enthusiastic, but most others who have pro-Russian sentiment are still critical of Russia, but support them as a major power capable of attacking US hegemony.

China: China is the most successful communist country to have ever existed. Many left-leaning people may support China to varying degrees because they are an Actually Existing Socialist country and because their model of Communism with Chinese Characteristics seems to work quite well for them. Due to the West (broadly) attacking Socialist governments in the name of Liberalism & becoming increasingly more fascistic, China could be an important bulwark against fascism. Many people support China uncritically - they genuinely like the Chinese system of government and want their governments to be more like China's. Other people critically support China - they believe China's government is problematic in some way(s), but support it anyway as a bastion of socialism and a significant challenger to US economic & political hegemony.

As for support for the governments as opposed to the people: We kind of have to talk about these things at the country level, since governments are the (imperfect) embodiments of political ideologies and collectively act on behalf of the people within their borders, and "the people" aren't monolithic. We often treat countries as avatars of political ideologies which is inaccurate but is an abstraction that unfortunately often leads to an oversimplification of the ideologies behind & effects of those governments' actions while allowing us to create a comprehensible narrative.

Evil china and evil russia have never done anything to my country while the US and Europe did and continue to do so, is that clear enough?

Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.

Excuse me? The US treats my people like animals and you want to bring human rights into the picture?

I'm currently working in the Middle East and speaking for myself, I'm less worried about dying brutally to a bombing campaign by China than I am by my own government, so that certainly plays a role.

I think if the government put some effort towards PR by making some superficial gestures such as not invading other countries or overthrowing their governments it would certainly help improve our image abroad and I could stop pretending I'm British.

What we really need is to convince the global South that NOT being bombed by China is actually an evil orientalist plot to subvert our kindly brutality.

It's getting very exhausting telling the locals "Oy yoo lot ain't neva seen 'ow 'orrible dem Choinese ca' be! Would yoo be preferrin' youse country, yeah? Would youse be preferrin' yoo be in one a dem 'orrifying debt traps, or would youse be preferrin', yeah? A noice Gaaza remodelin', yeah? Oi think tha choice is an easy one, yeah? Dem Choinese don' seem so noice now, do they?"

Speaking like a Brit makes my mouth hurt; no wonder they're so miserable.

Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.

A daily reminder that westerners don't consider non-westerners human.

Some good answers already here, but I can only answer for myself: I used to be that kind of leftist that was "Well I want socialism, but not like those scary foreign authoritarian countries. They're doing it wrong! Or that's not really socialism!" At some point after learning more history and talking with others online, I've softened my view on these places. Some of that is learning that some of what I knew about them was straight up misinformation, but some of it comes from a shift in perspective: These aren't abstract ideals of countries. They're real countries. With real people, real histories, real material conditions, real geopolitical relationships to deal with, etc. They're doing something really difficult and it's really easy to be an armchair quarterback while sitting cozy in the US where I don't have to deal with any of their tough decisions or the consequences of them. Am I happy with them doing some authoritarian policies? No. But maybe they're necessary to deal with the interference of the US? I don't know for sure if that's the best approach, but I don't have to imagine the counterexample of what it looks like if you don't take defensive measures, the US has helpfully provided a bunch in the form of all of the countries they've backed coups in for the crime of electing even a slightly leftist government. We could squabble about better ways to deal with this, but neither of us has the full context to have an educated discussion on the matter. Also for the genuinely bad stuff, I wouldn't go as far as specifically supporting those things, but it's worth putting them in perspective. You can't talk about China online without someone bringing up Tienanmen Square, meanwhile the US has been a never-ending avalanche of evil in it's short history, but you can talk about any number of things not related to politics in the US without a random leftist wandering into the discussion about the latest hollywood movie shouting the entire lyrics to "We Didn't Start the Fire." I mean we're happy to bring all that stuff up if it's in the right context, but people are so deranged about communist countries that the ONLY thing they can think to bring up in relation to them is their less savory moments that may or may not even be true/exaggerated.

It's really hard to sort good information from bad about these places because there's so much propaganda. I get that those other countries have an incentive to put out their own propaganda, but it's hard for me to know what their reach is or what their motivations are or how much they are lying vs countering US misinfo. Meanwhile I KNOW the US has a fairly sophisticated system of propaganda spanning government agencies, media companies, NGOs, etc. I KNOW the US is motivated to prop up the interests of capitalists and try to stop other countries from pushing back against them. A lot of the bad shit and lies the US has done is just straight up declassified history. So I'm sorry if I'm a little skeptical about what the empire that's made it it's business to deny self-determination to countries around the world has to say about those countries.

As for Russia, I'm not specifically a supporter. Ever since the USSR collapsed they've been another capitalist, imperialist country. But in terms of scale they're just not even remotely comparable to the US. They are at worst a regional power and outside of nukes can't really threaten the US on the global stage. So when the US war machine starts saber rattling about them, I know what it's for because I've seen it a million times before. We always need an external enemy to justify the massive amount of money we spend on the military and all of the capitalists who profit from it. Even if I think it would be good if someone in the region pushed back against Russian aggression, I think feeding the beast that is the US military industrial complex is a net negative for the world. Not that I really have any say in it. I can't remember the last time my congressperson or senator asked if I wanted to give another couple billion dollars to their friends in the "defense" industry. And then of course there was all the hysteria about Russian interference in our elections from the Democrats. I don't even care if they're right or wrong. That's besides the point. The function of the claims is what is more valuable to look at: The implication of "Russia is subverting our democracy by interfering in our elections." is "We had a previously uncorrupted democracy before the Russians got involved. Please ignore how our own billionaires have bought out all of our elections." It's a way to shore up support for a failing system by externalizing it's problems.

I just want to live in a world where we can all live dignified lives. US capitalists are the current greatest obstacle to that dream. I'd rather have imperfect allies against that than throw my lot in with the "Endless war, exploitation, and ecological collapse" team.

China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.

I'm rabidly pro-China and tacitly pro-Russia. I will praise both their people and their governments when I feel they are doing right, and criticize them when they are doing wrong.

Not interested in spreading falsehoods, but if anyone would like to organize efforts to express these opinions and supporting evidence, I would enthusiastically participate.

Westerners are so conditioned to regurgitate hatred against the officially sanctioned state enemies that not blindly parroting their caricatures is seen as suspicious, let alone have positive things to say.

I have more and stronger critiques of both countries and their governments than their haters do, largely because I have made serious attempts to understand the culture, history, & material conditions of these countries, instead of brushing them off with a thought-terminating cliché.

The US always needs a boogeyman to justify massive defense spending

What an absolute clusterfuck of a thead. Isn't .ml a leftist lemmy?...

Do you really have to ask this question lol?

Lemmy.world is full of libs who will take you with open arms, trust me.

I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was "essential" - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn't really count)

I became pro-China after that.