this post was submitted on 07 May 2025
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Butler said there’s been “severe overbuilding” in the Toronto condo market for a number of years, specifically when it comes to smaller units.

“The tiniest of tiny condos,” Butler said. “It’s weird that in a country like Canada where there’s been a consistent housing crisis for the last 10 years that if you build a very bad product, people won’t take it, it’s as simple as that.”

Butler said many of the unsold condos on the market today are ones designed for investors or real estate speculators and are not practical for most families.

“They are roughly the size of large hotel room, only meant to be rented out, and there’s been simply a massive overbuilding of non-family units,” he said, noting that many of the condos for sale in Toronto currently are 500-square-feet or less.

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[–] witnessbolt@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago

Hire me into Canada... promise I'll be a good citizen.... I've never been military before but if you made me sign up to help deal with my fellow yanks I'll do it... Canada, if you're listening...

[–] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 26 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Everything has a price, no one wants a 500 sqft apartment because it’s probably priced higher per square foot than a 2 bedroom.

If they are glorified hotel rooms then they need to be priced as such. One person in a 500 sqft unit would always feel more cramped than two people in 1000 sqft unit, so idk what these investors were thinking.

[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago

Investors were thinking with dollar sign eyes

[–] AnalogNotDigital@lemmy.wtf 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That they could sell the units to people who had Air BnB accounts

[–] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Pretty sure that's what they were thinking....

[–] AnalogNotDigital@lemmy.wtf 2 points 12 hours ago

Oh I'd all but guarantee that.

[–] Soleos@lemmy.world 29 points 1 day ago

They're not overbuilt, they're overpriced. I know plenty of people in Canada who would do perfectly well in a 500sqft condo, and I can't imagine there's a shortage of them. I had a time when it was perfectly fine for me. It's also true that such people can't usually afford the asking price and those who can (e.g. >100k/yr) usually expect a lifestyle involving more than a 500sqft home. This is just the free market forcing the prices to meet demand 🤷

[–] arankays@lemmy.ca 60 points 2 days ago (2 children)

The size is not the problem. It's small and expensive. It would be fine if these units were cheap and small.

500-600 square feet is plenty for one person if the layout is good.

[–] Ahrotahntee@lemmy.ca 26 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The floor plans are also straight up bizarre. I was in the market recently and I saw two en-suite bathrooms in a 2-bed 3-bath. Kitchen/living/dining combos that could barely serve any of those purposes. Dens that were 4sqft corners in a kitchen, or slight recess in a wall. Interior glass walls to compensate for no window in a bedroom.

Then there were just absolutely strange finishing design choices, like a wall mounted intercom in the entrance you had to kneel to read the screen or reach the keypad. I'm not that tall. Some of the UGLIEST post-modern tile work I've ever seen, bar fridges masquerading as kitchen fridges, shallow tubs, low shower heads (again, I'm 5'9 this is not usually an issue.)

[–] spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Looking in BC and many of the places are built like bowling alleys with windows only at one end. What were these builders thinking?

To make matters worse, many (scummy) realtors are now including patio and decks space in the square footage. No, a 800 sq ft place with a 700 sq ft patio is not 1500 sq ft of living space.

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 2 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

You can't have anything but windows at the end when you have a unit between two corners. With the way building codes require 2 staircases for escapes, it led to buildings being designed like that, since a corner unit only building with 2 staircases was a lot more expensive to build than a rectangle with these units in the middle with only windows at the end.

With the new regulations in BC for example allowing a single staircase, we should start to see less of these narrow units, at least for shorter buildings where it's allowed.

[–] PandaParent@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago

Especially since the “outdoor living” season is only 3 months long.

[–] hazeydreams@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Perhaps, but it has become so prevalent that there is no way of knowing for sure from most listings what the actual living space of a place is. I think nearly half of the listings I've looked at on the web in the past few months are overstating the square footage by 15% or more.

Here's a link to one particularly obvious example where the realtor says the place is 2400 square feet. It's nowhere near that and they are including an 800 square foot ground level patio as living space. Even without that patio space there's no way the place is 1600 square feet.

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/27373060/114-225-belleville-st-victoria-james-bay

[–] RabidStork@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

It's reasonable for two people as well as a "first home." My partner and I own a 960 sqft condo and it's all we need. If we wanted kids it wouldn't work but as just a couple it's great.

[–] FunderPants@lemmy.ca 77 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Investors and speculators should have to eat the loss, they took the risk now take the hit.

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 27 points 2 days ago

Yeah, but "risk" is just an empty buzz word that means "ownership deserves all the money". The line has to go up. If it doesn't go up, someone else has to pay for it!

[–] nyan@lemmy.cafe 62 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Price them appropriately—like, less than a dollar per month per square foot rent, or maybe the cost of a used RV to own—and you might see some uptake. As things stand, I expect these are unaffordable for the people who might be able to use them.

If the idiot owners won't budge on charging too much for too little, they deserve to go bankrupt over it.

[–] yes_this_time@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago

Prices are coming down, it may take a bit of time to shake out.

Students, affordable housing, starter homes, some retirees will see a downsize opportunity, reducing overcrowding in some homes.

Lots of utility at the right price.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 36 points 1 day ago (2 children)

so prices are cheap with the large supply yeah?

[–] rebelsimile@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 day ago

smiles at Queen Amidala

[–] jade52@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago
  • LAUGHS IN TRANNA *
[–] MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

People will rent them for the right price.

[–] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

About a third of the price that any reasonable rent would be, then you can just get 3 and actually have some decent square footage to work with.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 25 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

You say unsold condo, I say future student housing.

Jokes aside, this is why "build baby build" on its own is not going to solve the housing crisis.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I mean I'd say that "build baby build" implies building houses people can actually live in.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You say that because you're a reasonable person and not a profit maximizing sociopath, sorry, I meant capitalist. So long as our system idiotically conflates a means to satisfy people's basic needs for shelter with an investment vehicle for which line must go up, the implication that we are talking about "houses people can actually live in", is not a given.

[–] Subscript5676@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

“Build baby build” with sensibility ofc. A good chunk of unsold condos in Toronto prices out a lot of people, for incredibly small shoeboxes of units.

[–] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 day ago (4 children)

“Build baby build” with sensibility ofc.

Exactly. This is an example of what "build baby build" without sensibility looks like.

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[–] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 29 points 2 days ago

Cool. Let the owners go into bankruptcy, then have Druggie buy the units and rent them out as affordable housing ... which is a hell of a lot better than him begging Carney for money for a fucking tunnel.

[–] Arkouda@lemmy.ca 29 points 2 days ago (4 children)

While it is a bunch of bullshit that so many were built, we should find a way to use it. People without a home don't care how small it is so these unsold condos sound like they would make great transitional housing, student housing, etc.

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[–] Daryl@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Recall, these units are around the $4,000 a month range, condo fees included.

[–] iegod@lemm.ee 12 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Gonna need some evidence to back that up. I'm right downtown and 1bdrm ~600sqft condos are rented at about the $2500/month mark. There are some $3k+ outliers but they're few.

https://rentals.ca/toronto/entertainment-district/condos/1-bedrooms?bbox=-79.41154%2C43.63226%2C-79.36373%2C43.653

May need to tweak the filters.

[–] Daryl@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I did not say 'rented for', this is what they 'sell for'. Many rental units are still under rent control.

[–] iegod@lemm.ee 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The use of per month seems arbitrary in the case of a sale as that would depend entirely on the circumstances of the buyer and negotiated mortgage, if any.

[–] Daryl@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 days ago

These are 'starter homes' only in theory. Really, they are investment properties for rental purposes. One would be foolish to put any more than 10% down on them, you could get a better return by investing the money elsewhere and using rental income to pay the mortgage. No intelligent person in today's market would actually purchase one of these dormitories for their own residence. Even less would one pay out the entire price or even a large fraction of it to buy one for rental income, the return on investment would be far too low. You would get a higher return from GIC's.

That's why so many are just walking away from their pre-payments. They can not justify getting a mortgage for the remainder, and they probably can not get one anyway, given that there is no equity in the property. The mortgage would have to be greater than the unit is worth.

[–] jade52@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

You're correct

[–] Daryl@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 days ago

It's not an 'unsold condo market', it is an 'unsold overpriced aiirbnb' hotel room' market. These units are the size of a hotel room, and only useful for short-term accommodation.

[–] psx_crab@lemmy.zip 15 points 2 days ago

noting that many of the condos for sale in Toronto currently are 500-square-feet or less.

Holy crap, that's basically studio for single. I wonder how much they're actually selling

[–] Kcap@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago
[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Knock a wall down between them for a door and remove one of the kitchens, and now you have a 2 bedroom 2 bath condo with dual exits for an emergency.

If you can't move between units without going through a bedroom, make that a den or something and put a wall up in one of the 2 living rooms for the 2nd bedroom.

It might be a wonky unit, but it'd still be better than a shoebox

[–] Magister@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

Same thing in Montréal, there is 3000-4000 empty condo, too small and too expensive.

[–] SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

If corporations don't list housing at affordable rates the government needs to repossess those properties and price them affordably.

[–] 200ok@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Has it gotten to early pandemic numbers yet?

[–] monogram@feddit.nl 3 points 1 day ago

When the crisis is so extreme, legalised squatting laws help drive down prices.

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