this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2025
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Lemmy Be Wholesome

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[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 48 points 16 hours ago (5 children)

This made my ultra-catholic mother really angry. If non-catholic people didn't go to hell, then what was the point of all the effort she was putting in? She went to church every day. She followed rules like not eating meat on Friday. To her, it was really unfair that someone might get to go to heaven without having to put in all that work. How is anybody supposed to be a good person if they're not constantly terrified of hell?

Needless to day, despite following the rules, I don't really think she lives by the spirit of her religion.

[–] Shou@lemmy.world 15 points 15 hours ago

It's a normal response to effort and fairness. You see it in every situation where someone is treated differently and needs to make sacrifices other people don't.

Generational trauma has good examples. "But I had to learn how to deal with x on my own!" Or "I wasn't allowed to x, x or x when I was younger!" or "but I was left alone for days!" For x, fill in words like: raise, live, express, assert, have friends, have fun, have free time, have an opinion, have boundaries, keep my hard earned money, deal with neglect, be considered less of a human being, love or be worthy of love, having a sense of safety, etc.

[–] suite403@lemmy.world 16 points 15 hours ago

It's funny how they know their religions suck, and yet they just keep on keeping on.

[–] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 5 points 13 hours ago

Imagine going to Heaven and having to sit next to the Nazi High Command at the picnic.

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

If she things she 'worked' to get to Heaven, she doesn't understand salvation

It is a gift

We don't follow the rules to 'get into heaven', we follow the rules so people can see the public face of Jesus in our works, it is sometimes the only gospel people see, and we have a lot of regressive assholes to make up for

[–] Droechai@lemm.ee 2 points 7 hours ago

Works or grace has been debated for ages, no idea if the Catholics have found consensus though

[–] bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net 3 points 14 hours ago

I'm sorry your mom is a shitbird

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 11 points 14 hours ago

I hope the next pope can be as good as Pope Francis was

[–] sai_mi@infosec.pub 57 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

My mother is a divorcée. In 90s Ireland, she was demonized by the Catholic Church, and was publicly refused communion by the local priest after she left my (at the time alcoholic and abusive) father. She had a crisis of faith after all that and accepted the "fact" that she was doomed to hell while her five children would go to heaven. She quietly accepted this and from then on refused communion at all events, making up excuses with us none the wiser.

In the mid 2000s, I came out as gay and following that, spurred by the church's cruel treatment of my mother, left the church via apostasy. I had to tell my mother in detail as I was no longer allowed to be buried in a Catholic graveyard. She laminated the letter confirming my leaving of the church from the bishop.

In the mid 2010s she and I campaigned for Marriage Equality together. She told me about her crisis of faith. She also told me how I helped her through the other side of it just by existing. Before she thought all her children would be separated from her after death. But heathen that I was had equally doomed myself to join her. Logically that would make hell lesser. Logically that means the more sinners in hell, the less hellish it is. Therefore hell in its most hellish is empty, and the whole threat is bullshit whether you believe in an afterlife or not.

The fucking POPE saying something like this is huge, and very important for people that carry a burden of Catholic guilt. Good on him, and RIP.

[–] Shou@lemmy.world 12 points 15 hours ago

Wow! Your mom is a certified badass. She showed courage, stood up for herself and protected you and your siblings. Accepting eternal damnation with full understanding and dignity.

I grew up in a cult that took elements from different faiths. Every religion has the empty threat of a hell. All to keep people in their place. Even if it means to be an abusive man's posession.

[–] Nangijala@feddit.dk 18 points 18 hours ago

I hope your mom is still here and that she reads that quote.

Hugs for you both (and your sibs)

[–] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 25 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (3 children)

If there were more men like Francis in the church, I might still count myself a Christian. Alas, I actually read the gospel, and read it deeply in independent study, and found that the US has no Christian churches. There is only a shitty wealth cult that's like a fleshgait imitation of Christianity.

Fleshgait Jesus says: "buuuuuuuuyyyyyy buy buy buy the Ford F-150, sinner sinner siner sinUR SNER SINNER"

[–] myrrh@ttrpg.network 10 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (2 children)

...pope francis was a good guy, and he didn't need to flaunt his christianity to be so: his actions spoke for themselves, as they should...

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 8 points 14 hours ago

Jesus had a name for people who flaunted their holiness, they were 'Pharisees' and were the ONLY class of people that Jesus spoke ill about, he didn't even do that to the Romans come to execute him

"White-washed tombs full of rotting bones" is what he called them

[–] Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 4 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Just because the leadership is bad doesn't mean the message is bad

Help the poor, needy, and traveler in your land. If you do this, you are Christian enough

[–] vonxylofon@lemmy.world 2 points 4 hours ago

I can say with utmost certainty that about 90% of Christians I know behave nothing like that. On the contrary, they're the vilest, most judgmental and bigoted shitstains that I have ever known.

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 15 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I sometimes joke that I hope my late best friend has gone to evangelical Christian hell, because he was a bisexual punk who loved tabletop roleplaying games (like Dungeons & Dragons).


I was raised vaguely Christian, and when I was realising I didn't believe in God, I felt a lot of conflict, because I was still scared of going to hell. I was getting stuck on the idea that if all good morality came from God, does that mean that I would be evil as an atheist?

In the end, I concluded that if all morality came from God, that the many atheists who lead good and virtuous lives must still have the favour of God. On the other hand, morality existed independently of God, but that unbelievers would go to hell no matter how good they were in life, then I'd rather be defiantly good and go to hell than be coerced into belief.

This was before I understood that hell has historically often been understood as just a place without God (which, to a Christian view, is a hellish existence).

[–] Shou@lemmy.world 2 points 15 hours ago

I feel this. I found similar freedom discovering the illogic in the cycle of punishment. I grew up in a cult.

I was threatned with "hell" into not killing myself when I was 12 and had suicidal thoughts.

[–] TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world 26 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (2 children)

The old testament did not even mention hell and thus Jews don't believe it. Hell is a Christian invention to control the masses through threat of eternal damnation for disobeying the authority.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 22 hours ago (3 children)

i'm not believing that since i remember reading that the concept of heaven/hell is essentially the idea of dualism that is older than judaism itself, even, at least dating back to zoroastrianism, which existed in the middle east already at the time that judaism was formed.

[–] angrystego@lemmy.world 3 points 14 hours ago

There are things the human mind tends to come up with again and again.

[–] RowRowRowYourBot@sh.itjust.works 8 points 19 hours ago

Judaism is older than Zoroastrianism with the added caveat that what constitutes Judaism changes with time as modern Rabbinical Judaism and Priestly Judaic practices aren’t identical (The destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem by Rome leads to the Rabbinical movement)

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 7 points 21 hours ago

The concept of an afterlife consisting of Heaven and Hell absolutely existed in Judaism prior to Christ.

That was the primary difference between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Pharisees believed in more of the supernatural and the afterlife, whereas Sadducees were a political class of priests with no interest or belief in the supernatural.

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[–] Earflap@reddthat.com 35 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

I can't speak for god or anything

- the guy speaking for god

[–] Orangutanion@lemmy.world 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not religious so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Pope is a prophet? Like yeah he's the official leader of the Catholic Church but I don't think they believe that he convenes with god... I could be wrong though.

[–] Earflap@reddthat.com 11 points 18 hours ago

He is not a prophet but is supposed to have the "ear of god" and is his chosen representative in modern times. It really depends who you ask though, because all this shit is made up.

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[–] T00l_shed@lemmy.world 13 points 21 hours ago

Well, he is right, hell is empty, but then again, so is heaven

[–] Suoko@feddit.it 2 points 14 hours ago

3 days have passed, it's time for bergoglio.ai

[–] Geodad@lemm.ee 42 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Neither heaven nor hell exist, so you can all stop worrying about them.

Enjoy your life because it's the only one you get.

[–] samus12345@lemm.ee 16 points 22 hours ago

You should only worry about them if you're a sociopath who requires the threat of eternal torture to keep you from hurting others.

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[–] Confused_Emus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 1 day ago (2 children)

What a pleasant thought for the child diddling priests he did nothing about.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 4 points 14 hours ago

Oh, he did something—continued to shelter and protect them instead of turning them over to law enforcement.

[–] xor@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 day ago (3 children)

you only need to take one look at the Pope’s evil gold throne to know the entire institution of Catholicism is bullshit….
i mean, there’s a lot of other ways to figure that out, but the throne is glaringly obvious

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[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 186 points 1 day ago (19 children)

Yeah, he really was decent for a pope. And I think he might have been more decent as a pope if he had his way entirely. He really seemed like he wanted more compassion and change than he was able to make happen.

[–] Cris_Color@lemmy.world 9 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I agree. Though the pragmatist in me also thinks it's for the better for things to change slowly, as bad as that feels. It kinda feels like social progress moving too quickly just results in more intense backlash.

Broader culture has to be able to keep up with the change and if it outpaces them it seems like people reject the changes and it can cement the problems in place as people dig their heels in :/

I appreciate that he pushed things forward though. There's a lot more change still that needs to happen- I'm not holding my breath but I really hope the next pope actually carries that forward.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 5 points 16 hours ago

Yeah, there's always a lot of flex in social movement. The harder you push, the further you get; but unless the system resilient enough to most adapt, it snaps, or it rebounds. Neither of which is a reliable form of change.

To me, once lives are no longer on the line on the big scale, it's better to ease up and push for change gently from the bottom up rather than forcefully from the top down.

It doesn't fix problems as fast, but once they get fixed, the populace's inertia will serve up keep the changes as the status quo. Since the kind of changes that Francis was making were the kind that work from the bottom up, despite him being a power, I look at his changes as the result of the work already done, rather than something that was supposed to be the vanguard of change.

But, like you said, moving slow means that there's going to be people getting ground down by the system as it exists. Even once you get past the point where people are dying frequently by way of violence or gaps in the system, there's still going to be death, and suffering, until things change completely. But if you don't slow down once that goal is met, the serious enemies of humane change will fight harder and nastier.

You end up with a worse situation overall by pushing until a system breaks. You get the crazies making desperate moves instead of being gradually worn away.

[–] PotatoLibre@feddit.it 103 points 1 day ago (10 children)

Nobody can't change an institution like the Vatican in a few years, but I guess he tried.

Hopefully the new one will not be a conservative one.

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[–] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 39 points 1 day ago (10 children)

They only added Hell in the Middle Ages (even the name comes from the Vikings). It’s like when comics make the canon needlessly complicated in later years because they have to keep going no matter what.

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