this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2023
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Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.

“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.

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[–] Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages.. thats all i would accept. Nothing less.

[–] A1kmm@lemmy.amxl.com 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A 'Treaty of Versailles' type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be 'fair', seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).

The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.

I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.

Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn't consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.

Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago

Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.

This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It's not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn't dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we're stuck with this crony bullshit.

[–] krakenmat@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (7 children)

| Socialism worked in Russia:

Bullshit. Prosperity advanced much more in the west than in the Soviet Union, or anywhere in the soviet bloc. Corruption was rampant. Lying was rampant. People were miserable. Cultural genocide was the name of the game. Subjugated people hated it, and have fared significantly better since getting out. The only people who seem to be nostalgic about the USSR is the Russians, because they lost the ability to benefit from the slave labor of conquered vassal states.

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[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago (12 children)

Russia is a terrorist country. Terrorists can't be negotiated with. #SlavaUkraini

[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"Slava Ukraini" is fascists slogan used by, and mainly associated with, the mass murderers of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews. I guess that doesn't count as terrorism in your worldview.

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[–] sndmn@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago (18 children)

Russia can't be accepted back into the international community until Putin is in a jail cell or in the ground.

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[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Lol right? I mean why would literally anyone trust Putin at this point?

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[–] Hexadecimalkink@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Ironically the CIA believes Putin killed Prigozhin to defuse tensions with NATO for exiling Wagner to Belarus.

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

If Putin wants to defuse tensions with NATO, he knows what to do.

[–] FreeBooteR69@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Right, pullout, like Putin's daddy should have done.

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[–] tomatopathe@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (45 children)

So from having had a few exchanges with pro Russian accounts on Lemmy (which seems to be infested with a few very active ones) this is a summary of their arguments:

  • "Ukraine is Nazi"
  • "Well far right parties got a total of under 6% of the vote, and they elected a Jewish man president"
  • "yeah but Bandera and whatabout America"

  • "Ukraine killed ethnic Russians"
  • "A huge percentage of their population are ethnic Russians, including in government, and they are fine, and were until the Russian invasion. And now it's Russia that has killed, maimed and raped more ethnic Russians, including civilians, than Ukraine every did or even could. Including their own people thorough incompetence and corruption".
  • "Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America"

  • "Ukraine is fighting because they are forced to by their colonial masters, the USA and NATO, and Ukrainians will keep dying so long as they keep being armed"
  • "Actually > 90% of the population wants to continue fighting for their country back, so what you're basically saying is you think Ukrainians should be abandoned to Russian enslavement"
  • "Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America"

  • "NATO and USA are colonialists and this is just more colonialism"
  • "Actually both Russia and China are actual, bone fide land empires, with ethnic minorities that are forced to live like colonized people - including doing the fighting for Russia while their families back home live in misery and squalor and Putin's Mafia collect mansions, private jets and yachts"
  • "Yeah but Bandera, and whatabout America"
[–] seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It was an invasion. Invasions are wrong. That should be the beginning and end of the debate.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, there's usually more to say than just that. I don't think no discussion is the answer.

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[–] Snowpix@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I take it you had to deal with the Hexbears? Idiots.

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