this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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[–] A_Chilean_Cyborg@feddit.cl -3 points 6 days ago

We overthrown Pinochet with music and in the polls and since then most of our problems have been resolved in the polls too.

Democracy is the answer.

[–] N0body@lemmy.dbzer0.com 197 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Peaceful protests were meant to be a compromise to warn that something worse was coming. Black Panthers. Weather Underground. IRA and Sinn Fein.

Effective peaceful movements had potentially violent components. The more radical elements disappeared and peaceful protests became useless.

Unions were a compromise. Before unions, you’d drag the factory owner into his front lawn and exact justice.

[–] random_character_a@lemmy.world 64 points 1 week ago

I think this guy hit the nail in the head.

Peaceful protest only works if politicians and financial elite has fear and/or respect towards the commond man/woman. Too much elitisms strips away the respect, too many years of peaceful protests takes away the fear. Sometimes ivory towers need to come down, but violence has a tendency to spread and spiral out of control. It's a balance trick.

[–] JayDee@lemmy.world 31 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Nelson Mandela was released on the terms that he would preach peaceful protest, as the movement he had formerly been leading was a serious threat to the South African Government.

Reverend Martin Luther King Jr was a proponent of peaceful protest, though it could be argued he was losing faith in it near the end when he was assassinated. right after his death, the Holy Week Uprisings occurred, which saw immediate action from the federal government to pass the Civil Rights Act.

At the same time, acts of violence lie on a spectrum, and I think there is a fair amount of conversation to be had about what degree of violence and what type of violence are most effective.

[–] skulblaka@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Martin Luther King Jr was able to succeed with his peaceful protests because the threat of Malcolm X was looming directly over his shoulder. One requires the other. Either of them alone would not have made nearly the progress they did.

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[–] Odd_so_Star_so_Odd@lemmy.world 24 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Yea only under the threat of violence has power ever changed hands. You need both peaceful and violent components to any movement to make any change last though.

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[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 113 points 1 week ago (5 children)

The people saying "Violence isn't the answer" are the people who don't want to see anything change

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[–] PineRune@lemmy.world 105 points 1 week ago (2 children)

"Violence is not the answer" says country that won its place in the world through violence.

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 44 points 1 week ago (2 children)

The USA would still be a colony of Britain if it wasn't for a violent revolution.

[–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 37 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The USA would still be a native american land if millions of people had not been wiped out by Europeans

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago (10 children)

The Native Americans would have been much better off if they had simply strangled Columbus and all his crew the moment they made landfall..

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 66 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

There are entire Game Theory textbooks dedicated to grappling with the question of when and how one engages in violence. Because broadly speaking, violence is bad. The destructive social forces inhibit socio-economic development, degrade global quality of life, propagate disease, and cause catastrophic shortfalls of critical goods and services.

Whether you're working at the micro-scale of domestic abuse or the macro-scale of the bombing of Hiroshima, you're talking about a gross net negative for everyone involved.

But if a detente is one-sided, or a violent actor is free to act uninhibited, there are huge immediate rewards for looting and pillaging your neighbors, pressing ganging people into forced labor, and seizing neighboring property at gunpoint. It works great for perpetrators who engage in violence unchecked. Its only a problem when the perpetrator runs into a countervailing force.

But then over the long term, the violence takes an increasing toll. People don't build in neighborhoods that they think will be bombed. They don't invest in communities that are fracturing and falling apart. They don't befriend people they feel they can't trust or work alongside people they're terrified of.

Go look at Yugoslavia before and after the wars of the 1990s. Huge unified economy capable of operating on par with France or Italy, only to be splintered by violence and reduced to a near-pre-industrial state for over a decade. Who won the Yugoslav Wars? Who benefited from Bosnians and Serbians and Albanians and Croats pounding their plowshares into swords and slaughtering one another?

People talk about a "Peace Dividend" and you can see it in any country that's avoided a protracted military conflict for a generation or more. You can't be a successful country if you're always trying to hold one another at gunpoint.

[–] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The US is a successful country and has almost always been at war.

Britain at its peak was holding 10s of countries at gunpoint.

Violence works best if you are much much stronger than the other party.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

The US is a successful country and has almost always been at war.

The areas of the US that are most successful are those most insulated from social conflict. Areas that are subjected to state violence through overpolicing or are left to flounder in the face of industrial abuse, mafia violence, or unchecked domestic violence do much worse. Comparing Ferguson, MO to neighboring St. Louis illustrates this dynamic. One neighborhood is alternately brutalized by the city police and left exposed to domestic crime, dragging its socio-economic state into the gutter. The other is judiciously policed and socially supported by state and private largess, resulting in a far healthier and happier population.

Britain at its peak was holding 10s of countries at gunpoint.

And those countries suffered immensely. Meanwhile, Britain itself endured pockets of chronic crime and substance abuse specifically in areas that hosted military bases and other enclaves. The country saw an explosion in wealth inequality during its economic peak with the new wealth almost entirely accruing to the aristocracy. Victorian England was a hellhole for the Dickensian proletariat.

[–] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Areas that are subjected to state violence through overpolicing

Chicken, egg

Both of those are just chicken, egg

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Chicken, egg

The police trace their roots to military officers, cattle rustlers, and plantation overseers.

The conception of police-as-civil-servant intent on discouraging violence rather than initiating it is a relatively new one.

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[–] Tattorack@lemmy.world 65 points 1 week ago (7 children)

There are PLENTY of examples where violence wasn't the answer. Those moments made gradual changes that didn't have epic struggles with heroic figureheads, so they're boring, they're not obvious, and nobody talks about them.

There are a lot more examples in history where violence was used as a tool to oppress, threaten, conquer, destroy, or completely wipe out, by great and powerful entities.

Violence is sometimes the answer, if used by cool heads on specific targets with plans on what to do afterwards.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 46 points 1 week ago (13 children)

The problem with the fetishization of non-violence is that it ignores that most transformative non-violent social movements have occurred concurrently with violent co-movements. Ghandi preached non-violence, but at the same time, violent Hindu radicals were running around slitting the throats of every British official they could get their hands on. MLK preached non-violence, but the Black Panthers were waiting in the wings, offering a much more unpleasant option if MLK failed.

Violent social movements have very real tangible value, but their value isn't in the violence itself. We're not going to change the health insurance system through pure violence, no matter how many CEOs lay dead on the streets of Manhattan.

On the other hand, non-violent social movements rarely succeed either. Even the most modest, centrist, and conciliatory of reforms are derided as extreme or "Communist." Look at Obamacare, a reform designed from the ground up to NOT disrupt the profits of the insurance or healthcare industries. This was a modest market-based reform that was originally a Republican reform plan. The right spent a decade going nuts calling it the second coming of Mao. And they still oppose it to this day. In the end it tinkered around the edges, but it was hardly transformative change.

The real value of violence is that it makes modest peaceful reforms much more palatable. The civil rights amendments and acts passed in the 1960s and 1970s would have never passed if there were only peaceful movements behind them. They amended the damn constitution! That took people on both sides of the aisle saying, "damn, we really need to change some things. This is getting out of hand."

And that kind of broad bipartisan consensus that reform was needed was only possible because of the threat of violence. Violent radicals like the Black Panthers made MLK palatable to middle America. Without them, MLK would have just been another radical socialist to be demonized. And even then, they still killed him anyway.

The real value of violent social movements is that they make non-violent social movements possible. In fact, without violence, non-violent social movements rarely succeed. You need BOTH violence and non-violence if you want to make substantial change to the system. The violence puts the fear of God into the placid middle classes and wealthy corporate interests. This allows the non-violent reformers to show up with a solution to the problem that allows these centrist factions to feel that they're not giving in to the violent radicals. Violence and non-violence are two sides of the same coin. And they are both essential.

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[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 58 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)
[–] Rooty@lemmy.world 54 points 1 week ago (2 children)

"Violence is bad" statements are in the same vein as "stove is hot". Both are told to children because they cannot properly gauge the consequeces of using it, but are naive and condescending when told to adults.

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[–] chemicalwonka@discuss.tchncs.de 43 points 1 week ago
[–] Irelephant@lemm.ee 41 points 1 week ago

To quote the onion, violence is never the answer, if you ignore all of human history.

[–] Hobbes_Dent@lemmy.world 36 points 1 week ago (1 children)

A notable uptick in web queries for "guillotine for sale" is not a DDoS.

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[–] Etterra@discuss.online 29 points 1 week ago

Anyone who believes that violence doesn't solve anything has clearly never paid attention.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 24 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Violence is not the answer.

Violence is more of a question.

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[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 23 points 1 week ago (6 children)
  1. Whenever violence is involved, either both sides are violent, or violence wins.

  2. When neither side is violent, violence is not the answer.

  3. Now both sides look at #1 and ponder if the other side is ready to be violent.

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[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Pacifism is only good for aggressors and cowards

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[–] DragonsInARoom@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The answer is violence, but to advocate for peace in principle.

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[–] uzay@infosec.pub 16 points 1 week ago

The answer is obviously codifying the position of power that violence granted you in a set of laws, hoping they won't be challenged by further violence

[–] gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (23 children)

There's a lot of evidence that says that non-violent resistance is more often effective, and when it is effective it's more effective, than violent-based resistance.

Can't grab the source info link at the moment, but this video talks about it.

https://youtu.be/5Dk3hUNOMVk

Edit:

https://cup.columbia.edu/book/why-civil-resistance-works/9780231156820

https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/about/civil-resistance/

[–] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (11 children)

non-violent resistance is more often effective

It's only ever effective when a credible violent alternative is present.

No oppressed person in history has ever gotten their rights by appealing to the better nature of their oppressor.

Civil rights weren't won when black people asked politely and just moving everyone's hearts at how unjustly they were being treated, when MLK died, he had a 75% disapproval rating. Civil rights were won through repeated demonstrations of power and showing what would happen if their demands weren't met.

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[–] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 13 points 1 week ago (1 children)

A few questions for the study:

  1. What's the data source? If they're just doing news reports and traditional history that can hide a lot of failed non-violent protests. A non violent protest, especially one against the medias interests, is way less likely to show up in the historical record then a violent insurrection. Only the successful movements like the civil rights movement will get mentioned on the non-violent side whereas every insurrection or riot, successful or not, is captured in the historical record.

  2. What's the breakdown by method? It seems they're including strikes in this which has a very high success rate and high occurrence, so much so it could drown out all the failed protests.

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[–] BackBreaker909@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 week ago

Everyone knows violence isn't the answer....its the question. And the answer is yes!

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 14 points 1 week ago

Further reading: How Nonviolence Protects the State

I haven't read it yet but I read another book by that author

[–] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago

It’s a double edged sword, because people who you don’t agree with will resort to violence as well. Like the Taliban.

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