The US was built with trains, it's a shame you all seemed to have abandoned them falling behind countries with much smaller GDP's . I'd love to do the Am track one day looks like a great way to see it all.
this post was submitted on 26 Apr 2024
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I mean, the American people didn’t abandon them. GM used monopolistic practices and corporate collusion to basically make most major cities an offer they couldn’t refuse. The gotcha, of course, is that they were being offered a “sweet deal” on a transit mode that is overall less effective for major passenger corridors in large cities, and have shorter average service lives, and use consumable parts much more heavily:
The General Motors streetcar conspiracy refers to the convictions of General Motors (GM) and related companies that were involved in the monopolizing of the sale of buses and supplies to National City Lines(NCL) and subsidiaries, as well as to the allegations that the defendants conspired to own or control transit systems, in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act. This suit created lingering suspicions that the defendants had in fact plotted to dismantle streetcar systems in many cities in the United States as an attempt to monopolize surface transportation.
Between 1938 and 1950, National City Lines and its subsidiaries, American City Lines and Pacific City Lines—with investment from GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California (through a subsidiary), Federal Engineering, Phillips Petroleum, and Mack Trucks—gained control of additional transit systems in about 25 cities. Systems included St. Louis, Baltimore, Los Angeles, and Oakland. NCL often converted streetcars to bus operations in that period, although electric traction was preserved or expanded in some locations. Other systems, such as San Diego's, were converted by outgrowths of the City Lines. Most of the companies involved were convicted in 1949 of conspiracy to monopolize interstate commerce in the sale of buses, fuel, and supplies to NCL subsidiaries, but were acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the transit industry.
Kind of, but you also have the issue that a lot of streetcar networks were built at a loss to support land development. When these networks went bankrupt, local governments didn't really want to fund the subsidy to keep them running, so these systems either collapsed quickly or slowly.
It is obvious that car companies pushed for cities to change in a war to accommodate cars and sell buses, but you also have the issue that a car dependent lifestyle was considered a symbol of wealth for over a generation, people wanted to move out to the suburbs, and politicians were elected to do so.
This is fascinating! Thank you.
I’d love to do the Am track one day looks like a great way to see it all.
I have wanted to AmTrak the country for like 18 years now. The thing is it's just not an appealing experience for the cost. A trip from Florida to California would take 120 hrs/4.25 days one-way. That means that someone would need to take 9 days for a round trip if things match up perfectly. The other thing is that tickets can be quite expensive. The same trip is ~$550 one way. So, we'd have someone spending 7 vacation days and $1100 on transportation alone to sit on a train in coach for nearly the entire time without even getting to see their destination. Say you wanted to stay a week in California. There go another 5 vacation days for a total of 12 vacation days spent, with about half of them spent on a train in coach. You'd also have to add in the costs of staying and touring California, which can be fairly cheap if you know someone there or very expensive if you don't.
Very few people in the US have the time off and the financial means to make this an appealing trip.
I made a similar comment to this several days ago.
It takes 46 hours to go from Chicago to Seattle by train, and only 30 by car, for a difference of a whopping 16 hours. Even stopping to sleep for the night, you can get there faster driving. If you don’t get a sleeper, it’s decently cheap at like $120. But still, double the time isn’t appealing to most anyone, especially when actually comfortable accommodations for 2 days are wildly more expensive.
I’d love to travel by train, but it’s just too slow to be practical, even if you really don’t have much going on (if you have pets, for example, that extra week for travel can really get cumbersome). If it was equivalent time to driving (or faster would be great) I think you’d see a lot more people adopting it. Even if it doesn’t replace all the air travel, to just have it cut down cross-country driving would be great. Unfortunately that means a huge investment in rail infrastructure, and a lot of time, to bring the network up to speed.
It's pretty comparable to a car in medium distances. SF to LA is about 7 hours by car, maybe 10 hours by train. The extra time is well worth the benefit of being able to just relax the whole trip.
Amtrak is really nice for medium-distance trips. I've gone from San Francisco to LA, to Seattle, to Denver. You get one overnight, no boarding hassle, can bring on a TON of luggage, and if you're a geography nerd like me you get great views of the landscapes. I work on the train when I do this, so I don't lose vacation days.
They used to have a decently priced unlimited ticket that you could use to see the country during summer break. Get on/off the train whenever/wherever you want.
It's not the high speed corridor we need, want, or deserve, but fuck at least it's A high speed corridor. One that will presumably make a shit ton of money in both fares and casino revenues. So maybe it'll convince Americans that it's a good investment and maybe we oughtta, idk, BUILD MORE OF THEM
There is a slight problem with this and it depends on how you view the world.
If only things that are profitable should be built then great.
But things like railways are built and effectively the most profitable lines subsidise the least profitable. But the system as a whole is more profitable because it is larger. But if companies come in and take all the icing off the cake for themselves. The rest of the cake looks a lot less interesting and might not get developed.
I do think a couple of lines that go directly past cars stuck in traffic are going to blow peoples minds and can be good PR though.
I was amazed at the trains in Chicago, the railway capital of America, probably the world at one point. The train was cruising along and I kept looking at cars and saying "the bloody cars are going faster than us! What kind of train is this?" The answer I got was "A good one, at least for America"
Rail also has a sort of hidden economic benefit in that once you overcome the network effect, it boosts economics on a larger scale. Some people in China thought it was crazy for the government to build high speed rail at the speed and scale that they did, and that it would never compete with flights, etc. And yes, the line all the way out to Xinjiang is not profitable and subsidized by other lines. But the overall benefit to the Chinese economy by connecting all the major cities together can't be underestimated.
Hey I have a crazy idea, it's more expensive and it won't work, but I'm sure we can agree to cancel this project because of how futuristic it sounds.
I call it HyperHoops, because I was hyped when I came up with it.
No I'm not on drugs, promise.
The $140BN Race to Build America's First High-Speed Railway
Welcome to the future of the 20th century.
I’m all for more trains in general, but $12 billion?? Fucking hell that’s too much money. And Las Vegas??? A city that practically and logistically-speaking should not exist? Building a zero emissions train (theoretically awesome) that goes out into the middle of the desert to a city that is warming faster than anywhere else in America, one that will only need more access to our dwindling water supply in the future, makes zero sense to me.
I’m sure people will hate me for saying this, but we should be phasing out unsustainable cities like Las Vegas, not giving them incentives to build up even more.
12 billion dollars for a train line hundreds of miles long and possibly rebuilding some bridges is pretty cheep. And it isn't like casinos waste a lot of water to run compared to other economic activities.
And, honestly, Las Vegas isn't that unsustainable except for the heat and we already have ways of dealing with it.
Yeah, in my area, we were quoted ~$1B for a train line extension of like 10-20 miles, on largely existing track. And that's wasn't high speed rail, but light rail.
Trains are expensive. Roads are expensive ($1.5-7.7M/mile according to this site). These costs also don't include ongoing maintenance.
Trains usually cost more in the short term, and cost less longer term. So $12B today is expensive, but it also means we don't need expensive expansions to i-15 and can easily increase people moved by increasing the frequency of train runs.
High speed rail is expensive to build in developed and incorporated areas. That’s pretty much a universal truth, unless you get all CCP about labor and land rights.
I mean, I'm sure there are ways to get that cheap prison labor to do some rail work. Could put gangs of them together in chains or something. Think about the profit margins!
I’m sure people will hate me for saying this, but we should be phasing out unsustainable cities like Las Vegas, not giving them incentives to build up even more.
I live in Vegas (an am partly excited about the train because, well it's a train and it will make it easier to visit family) and fully agree. This place is uninhabitable for 3 months out of the year without technological assistance (air conditioning). But I think this applies to many places both too hot and too cold. Even Southern California has no water without massive exploitation of the Colorado River. Our population is simply too much for the planet.
Los Angeles could get all the water it needs from the Pacific Ocean with existing technology, whenever the politics requires it.
Didn't the voters approve a desalinization plant like 20 years ago, and nothing has happened?
True, especially with some of the recent advancements, but of course politicians doing anything smart is where the impossiblity lies.
Our population is simply too much for the planet
That's just not true. Every time I hear this, it's assuming current technology and waste. And the estimates I've seen are all over the map:
Debate about the actual human carrying capacity of Earth dates back hundreds of years. The range of estimates is enormous, fluctuating from 500 million people to more than one trillion. Scientists disagree not only on the final number, but more importantly about the best and most accurate way of determining that number—hence the huge variability.
Every time we've run into issues, we've innovated our way out of it. We build dams, improve irrigation, seed clouds, desalinate water, etc. I see no reason for this to stop.
There's probably a theoretical limit, but population growth is slowing, so I doubt we'll actually hit it. Likewise, space tech is improving, so we'll probably expand outside the planet as well, which will also result in more innovation for supporting populations on limited resources.
For Vegas, the main concern is water. Energy is cheap and can be much cheaper, so air conditioning shouldn't be a major concern. In fact, it's probably better for people to live in deserts because that's (likely) less of a strain on wildlife vs living in forests or swamps.
Every time we’ve run into issues, we’ve innovated our way out of it.
Is that right?
We're currently wiping out the Amazon, causing the 6th great extinction, unsustainably using fossil fuels. Billions of people are dependent on very complex supply chains that require massive polluting and ocean life harming ships to get them to you. You can't even talk about your favorite camping spot without it getting overrun and damaging the ecosystem. Many people can't afford to see their favorite artists because with a massive population and popular artists that supply and demand is way out of whack. Same with Disneyland etc. We don't have enough housing, and if we build more we're going to wipe out even more ecosystems and use even more resources.
Las Vegas? Those solar panels and air conditioners are produced using fossil fuels. Also, the desert is not wasteland, just because desert species may not be your favorite doesn't mean it's ok to wipe them out to build more housing tracts.
There are so many aspects of overpopulation, producing enough food, water, and housing are just the tiny tip of the iceberg. These things I brought up are what came to my mind in 2 minutes before I had my coffee.
By saying technology is the way past our problems is to set up a race condition between technological advancements that are not guaranteed (and most likely to exacerbate the rich vs poor gap) and civilization ending destruction that is.
The way you get innovation is by adjusting the incentives and disincentives to match actual, long-term costs. Tax negative externalities and the market will respond. It's the whole idea behind Piguovian taxes, which I'd like to see more of.
I think this approach would help solve issues like the Amazon, fossil fuel over-reliance, etc.
We don't have enough housing, and if we build more we're going to wipe out even more ecosystems and use even more resources.
Sure, if we continue the same way we have. If we instead increase density, it won't be as much of an issue.
If we increase costs of living in suburbs and reduce the costs of living in cities, we'd see a lot less sprawl and more affordable housing. Specific proposals:
- move sales taxes to property taxes - roughly follow the Land-Value Tax idea
- higher gas taxes and vehicle registration fees, especially for large trucks (e.g. delivery trucks)
- cheap/free transit
- cycle/walking paths separate from cars
In other words, nudge people toward living in cities, and reward them with fantastic infrastructure. That sets proper incentives so the market can innovate solutions.
Those solar panels and air conditioners are produced using fossil fuels
Currently, yes. But they don't need to be. If we jack up fossil fuel taxes, we'll see a more rapid shift toward renewables. I work in a mining-adjacent industry, and I can tell you that they'd absolutely switch if it made business sense, but fossil fuels are just cheaper.
the desert is not wasteland
Agreed, I actually live in a desert climate and appreciate the natural beauty of the desert.
That said, Nevada is very large, and a lot of it is protected, federal land (like 80%), so moving people to the populated areas in Nevada won't significantly impact current wildlife. It's already suburban sprawl, and more people could live there without increasing that sprawl, if the proper incentives are in place.
rich vs poor gap
I also disagree with this notion as well.
Yes, there's an income gap, but the poor are still better off year over year. The real concern, imo, is that shrinking middle class and immigration limitations. Immigrants start way more businesses than non-immigrants (i.e. innovation), yet at least in the US, there's a push to limit immigration.
I think there is a problem, but it's not a "replace the whole system" problem, but more of a "let's give David more chances to fight Goliath." That means:
- more regulatory exemptions for small companies
- reforms for patent system
- large penalties for nonsense litigation for large orgs
- more liability for execs for crimes committed by their org
And so on. Pair that with carefully thought-out Piguovian taxes and we should see an acceleration of improvements to the climate, income distribution, traffic, etc. The trouble is getting something like this made into law and properly enforced.
These are great ideas and should be implemented, but at best the push the issue of population down the road. These are temporary band-aids to a worsening problem.
A species that grows beyond it's bounds and kills itself is not intelligent, it's merely a clever tool user. Let's prove our real intelligence by being the first species on our planet conscious of the physical bounds, with understanding we have the capacity to to go beyond them to our own demise, and wisdom to actively choose sustainability. Let's be smarter than bacteria on a Petri dish.
The goal of our species shouldn't be to fit as many humans as possible on the planet and make everyone sacrifice for it.
But I want to clarify, I'm not in favor of authoritarian limits on reproduction (I'm an anarchist). I suspect, looking at the timing of the human population explosion on the scale of thousands of years, that exploitative economic systems and the ability to cheat the natural energy balance by using prehistoric sunlight energy (fossil fuels) are the drivers of this explosion and if we can eliminate or control those things the population would naturally contract.
worsening problem
I think things are getting better, or at least the groundwork is getting better. Some indicators (numbers come from energy use by sector):
- heat pumps are getting popular - home energy is ~10% global energy usage
- EVs are getting more popular - currently accounts for ~12% global energy usage
- energy production from renewables is growing, and energy from coal is slowing - overhead from fossil fuels is 5-10%, so this will drop as renewables grow
So just looking at that, we have 20-30% of our energy use that's in the process of being replaced or replaceable with renewables, and that's a conservative estimate of the low-hanging fruit. The numbers are better in more developed countries as well, so as these technologies get cheaper, we'll see more rapid rollout.
understanding we have the capacity to to go beyond them to our own demise, and wisdom to actively choose sustainability
Yeah, I don't think that'll ever happen. We're generally pretty bad at planning ahead at scale, though we're pretty good at responding to stimuli.
Instead of trying to get everyone to be wiser, I think it's more productive and thus better to adjust the stimuli to get the responses we're looking for. If greenhouse gases are destroying the planet, tax them. If sprawl is killing ecosystems, make it more attractive to build high density housing. And so on.
exploitative economic systems and the ability to cheat the natural energy balance by using prehistoric sunlight energy (fossil fuels) are the drivers of this explosion
I disagree. If that was true, wouldn't we see a lot more population growth in developed countries and less population growth in poorer countries? Those are the ones using the most energy per capita.
Population growth is greatest in poorer areas, probably because of a mix of poor education and reliance on kids for elder care.
If we improve access to technology and wealth in poorer areas, we'll likely see growth of energy use in the short term, followed by decreases per-capital as more efficient infrastructure rolls out, and then better access to education will lead to drops in population growth. We can hopefully short circuit the initial growth in energy use by developing cheap renewables so they won't need to go through the fossil fuel phase first.
In short, if we want to reach a population equilibrium, we should be focusing on technology to improve the lives of people in poorer areas, not pushing for reduced reproduction directly.
I agree that Vegas shouldn't exist, but the price tag makes sense? It's in California, there are probably a lot of environmental measures that will be taken during the construction process which I fully support happening.
Cool, I hope they extend it to St. George in Utah and eventually all the way to SLC. I'd visit Vegas way more if I could just hop on a train and go.
Then send it over the rock pile into Denver!
Name it Blaine!
Not often I see a dark tower reference in the wild