Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !askusa@discuss.online
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
view the rest of the comments
To tell any other story in the Star Wars universe, you must first retcon the Original Trilogy.
See, the Original Trilogy established that the "dark side" was a temptation for every Jedi. Like cocaine or meth for modern humans: addictive poison that gives a temporary rush of power.
That's great for the whole spiritual, mystic, two-wolves-within-you conflict Luke went through. His victory was overcoming his shortcomings in the form of fear and anger.
But it's actually terrible for any story made afterwards.
On the one hand, you can't now make a story where, "maybe the Jedi were excessively stoic." without also inadvertently making the argument that Luke was maybe... wrong?... to conquer his emotions? It undermines Luke's conflict.
On the other hand, you also can't make the Dark Side totally evil without flattening Vader's character. When Luke loses himself to fear in Episode 5 and to anger in Episode 6, he proves that the Dark Side doesn't sink its teeth into you and control you permanently after a single moment of weakness. Even after losing yourself to the Dark Side, you can still observe how it is hurting your loved ones and then choose to pull yourself out of it, conquering your fear and anger in order to protect them. Exactly as Luke does for Vader, and exactly as Vader does immediately after for Luke.
Which means Anakin was just... one-dimensional up until that point. Weak. Too simple to be a protagonist. He wakes up to find he's killed Padme, and yet still doesn't turn his life around and learn to fight the temptation of the Dark Side? He hunts down and kills Jedi who had nothing to do with his fall, and yet never looks into their eyes to realize he's fallen?
No matter how you look at it, it just... doesn't work.
That's why the prequels retconned the Jedi into something morally ambiguous. And why the sequels retconned them into a past that needed killing. It's why the Clone Wars animated series turned the Jedi into a bureaucratically anti-emotion order. And why a lot of video games added lore where the Jedi actually committed genocide against the Sith. It's also why pretty much none of these other media talk about the Dark Side in the same tone as the OT.
The second the OT ended, the Dark Side could no be longer a "temptation". It had to became a faction. An unjustly vilified piece of humanity. An ethnic group.
Because you can't have a "dark side" and have complicated, nuanced characters and extensive world-building: either A) the world will fall apart, B) the characters will be woefully inconsistent, or C) all of the above.
So every, single time you want to make new Star Wars media, you have to retcon the "Dark Side" essentially out of existence.
The main issue with the Force is that no one ever defined how it and the Dark Side work.
Not that midichlorian bullshit, but an explanation of why the Dark Side is powerful.
There are sort of fan theories as to how it works, but as you pointed out, those are undercut by the lack of consistency.
The original trilogy sort of hints at a workable mechanism.
First is the Light Side. You are borrowing power from the universe to do things. It's not fast, but it is powerful.
Then the Dark Side, you are not asking. You're demanding. You're pulling more power faster than the universe can support. This is why hatred and fear lead to the Dark, because if your emotions are heightened you're less likely to ask.
The Dark Side should also be corrosive to your own body.
Vader's line that he was more machine than man. It should not have been a single injury on a lava planet, but a slow decay as he literally pulled the life out of his own body to fuel his power.
Palpatine should have been slowly decaying. Not one fight with reflected lightning.
But that's the prequel problem. People can't leave shit alone and have to explain every little detail, even if years are meant to go by between the prequel and the original.
Star Wars has been constantly retconning itself, from the beginning.
The first film was not really produced as "Episode IV", it was "Star Wars", a standalone film. It was a movie about a farmer orphan who goes on a swashbuckling space adventure with laser swords and space wizards. The good guys are unambiguously good, the bad guys are just bad guys. Everything is pretty much just as it seems, no secretly alive people, no secretly related people. Lucas may have had nebulous plans/hopes for follow ons, but they weren't baked and the overall concept is standalone.
Then ESB came along and retconned the Skywalker family, and produced cliffhangers knowing there'd be a third film. However, I'm pretty certain that "there is another Skywalker" didn't specifically have Leia in mind at the time, mainly because of how it's handled in the follow up.
Then ROTJ came along, and that little tease about 'there is another Skywalker?' just a kind of casual "oh yeah, that's Leia, and she's your sister, and we are going to do absolutely nothing serious with that, just consider the matter closed even though they were clearly setting up for... something with that".
A lot of things in the franchise have this feel. Like "Rei's provenance is mysterious and significant" swinging in the next film to "the parents are nobody, parents don't matter" and then swinging again in the last of that set of three to "just kidding, her provenance is very significant".
There's a massive amount of content created between the OT and the prequels. Most of it was pretty consistent.