this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2023
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Maps and documents recovered from the bodies of Hamas attackers reveal a coordinated plan to target children and take hostages inside an Israeli village near Gaza.

Documents exclusively obtained by NBC News show that Hamas created detailed plans to target elementary schools and a youth center in the Israeli kibbutz of Kfar Sa'ad, to "kill as many people as possible," seize hostages and quickly move them into the Gaza Strip.

The attack plans, which are labeled "top secret" in Arabic, appear to be orders for two highly trained Hamas units to surround and infiltrate villages and target places where civilians, including children, gather. Israeli authorities are still determining the death toll in Kfar Sa'ad.

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[–] _cnt0@feddit.de 37 points 1 year ago (4 children)

This doesn't look like fabricated evidence at all. I am very happy with the fact checking of our media.

[–] EatBorekYouWreck@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Why does it sound fabricated that an attack that killed 1200 civilians targeted civilians?

For me it makes total sense.

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

Hamas is a genocidal, racist organization who declared in their charter peace talks are "a waste of time and vain endeavors".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

Yeah, maybe this is fabricated. But we do not need to collect evidence to be able to judge who they are. They state it proud and clearly.

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm talking about the attack plan printout here. Not the attack itself.

[–] EatBorekYouWreck@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m not sure about your logic here, do you recognize the attack but reject that it was planned with printouts? Do you think the attack of >2000 terrorists was spontaneous?

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I'm not sure if you're playing dumb here. What I'm saying is, that this looks like Israel is planting fake evidence to spin a narrative. That does neither mean nor imply that there was no attack or that that was not planned. The "40 beheaded babies" turned out to be bullshit and I bet this will too. Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

The '40 beheaded babies' were a misquote from an interview with one IDF commander blown up by some media. It was corrected quickly.

Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.

Wait so if I understand you correctly: even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it's still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas worse than they are?

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The '40 beheaded babies' were a misquote from an interview with one IDF commander blown up by some media. It was corrected quickly.

Even if the printouts turn out to be genuine, the reporting on it seems to be disingenuous and tries to make Hamas, and by extension the Palestinian people, look even worse than they are to make the over the top retaliation more palatable to the world by dehumanizing the enemy.

Wait so if I understand you correctly: even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it's still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas look worse than they are?

I think you've strayed far from the path

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago

Wait so if I understand you correctly: [...]

You don't.

even if these documents are genuine and prove that Hamas explicitly wanted to target children, it's still a big media conspiracy to make Hamas look worse than they are?

No. But I don't see that from those pictures. They targeted a residential area, which happened to contain a school (big surprise). Like with the "beheaded babies", extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. From the provided information I'm not convinced that Hamas targeted children specifically.

Targeting civilians is already bad. The way I suggest they spin a story is by setting the focus on children, babies, women, ... to appeal to emotions rather than just reporting facts. And I think they do that to dehumanize Hamas and by extension Palestinians to justify the retaliatory atrocities of an even bigger magnitude in the eyes of the world.

It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp ... remember the babies taken out of the incubators in Iraq?

[–] EatBorekYouWreck@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why do you think that accusing Hamas of the atrocities it did says something about the Palestinians? Do you not recognize that most Palestinians avoid such violant acts? Holding terrorist organizations accountable for their crimes against humanity says nothing about the Palestinians.

Just like how holding the Russian government for their war crimes and their terror does not de-humenizes russians all around the world and in Russia. That’s a child’s way of seeing things.

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

You quite obviously do not understand how propaganda and dehumanization works.

That’s a child’s way of seeing things.

That's rich coming from somebody who just said what you said.

[–] Fades@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fake evidence to spin a narrative??? We have all seen the result of these plans

I like that you also moved to goal posts since you clearly couldn’t stomach your own shit take on how the plans must be false flag plants, but my favorite part was when you felt able to say that even if they were genuine, that SIMPLY REPORTING IT would be an intelligence attack on Hamas/palestine.

Like are you fucking kidding me??? Shall they only report on things that look good for Hamas?

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de -1 points 1 year ago

Fake evidence to spin a narrative??? We have all seen the result of these plans

We have have seen the result of some plan. I'm questioning whether it is 1) the plan that was depicted here and 2) even if it was whether the reporting on its content is accurate.

I like that you also moved to goal posts [...]

Not really.

[...] since you clearly couldn’t stomach your own shit take on how the plans must be false flag plan~~t~~s, [...]

Um, no. You do not seem to understand what false flag means, and nowhere did I suggest any false flag operation.

[...] but my favorite part was when you felt able to say that even if they were genuine, that SIMPLY REPORTING IT would be an intelligence attack on Hamas/palestine.

I did not say anything even remotely like that.

Like are you fucking kidding me??? Shall they only report on things that look good for Hamas?

They should report stuff they have fact checked and not transform 'the general populace' into 'babies, kids, women, cripples, ...'. The entire point/concept of terror is hitting soft targets. Reporting only on the 'very weak' caters to emotions, not transport of information. And why would they do that ...

[–] Fades@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Why are you so sure Hamas couldn’t draw up plans and use sat imagery?? Do you think they’re too dumb?

Oh they had plans?! Must be a false flag plant!!!

Give me a break

[–] krolden@lemmy.ml 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Just like those decapitated babies they can't find pics of or prove in any way they exist

[–] Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Wasn't the decapitated babies rumor started by US news outlets, then parroted by their president all the while Israel literally said that they don't have definite proof for that claim and are not investigating in that direction?

Hard to keep up with all the shit slinginging going on.

[–] hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When you paint yourself into a corner like that your only options are to DIY or try to sweep it under the rug

[–] Krauerking@lemy.lol 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah the burned photos weren't doing it since that's very clearly not the same as beheading and so now they are just trying to show it could be true because "look at all this smoke we are pumping into the room! Somewhere in here might be an actual fire no one can actually find anymore!"

Doesn't matter. The leaders will keep doing what they want and the people who want to agree and watch the "Animals of Palestine" be wiped out will take anything to prove it was necessary.

[–] HuddaBudda@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It would be hard to say what Israel is lying about in this situation. Overall, it's not like we don't have verifiable evidence Hamas planned a invasion and executed it.

We don't exactly need more proof they were responsible.

But my overall problem has to do with the fact that anyone could have printed these documents and labeled them "Top Secret" and "found" them on enemy combatants. Specifically anyone with an A4 type color printer.

I don't think Israel has a reason to lie about this, but I will state the obvious that this evidence is paper thin in comparison to the live videos of hostages.

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago

I have no doubt about Hamas fighters invading Israel. That is pretty evident. But this kind of "evidence" found on the fighters is pretty suspicious. It is as credible as the pristine passports of the terrorists found near the WTC after 9/11.

[–] Fades@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

AnYoNe WiTh A pRiNtEr

They have no reason to lie but you think they planted it, hmmm. Yeah top secret on the documents totally means they’re fake because Hamas wouldn’t try to keep battle plans quiet. We know they were organized af but a map is a bridge too far?

[–] HuddaBudda@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

They have no reason to lie but you think they planted it, hmmm.

Forgive me, it looks like you walked into our hypothetical discussion and took it at face value. But that is my fault for using a double negative.

Overall, it's not like we don't have verifiable evidence Hamas planned a invasion and executed it.

We don't exactly need more proof they were responsible.

Though if you want me to be honest, I think lying is more in human nature then telling the truth. We will lie for something as simple as winning an online discussion, or as heartfelt to save the people we love.

I don't like the evidence because it is evidence that is easily created. Anyone with an A4 type printer can take a picture of "Plans" and present it as evidence. I want hard evidence that I can crack my teeth on, not this soggy bread evidence.