this post was submitted on 24 May 2024
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Linux

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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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[–] wahming@monyet.cc 4 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Honestly, I am so tempted to ditch Linux because of minor issues like this. No autoscroll on scroll wheel, no option for mono audio, etc etc. I do not want to set up a million scripts to customise my experience, I want the options to be there by default. If MS wasn't screwing the pooch I probably would have moved back at some point.

[–] ricdeh@lemmy.world 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

All of those things have nothing to do with GNU/Linux and everything with the desktop environment you chose.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It doesn't matter.

If a first time user installs any random combination of distro and desktop environment and they can't get it all to work smoothly right away with zero effort they will never use any flavor of Linux ever again.

That's how much of a chance to secure a user you have for a software platform or OS. Less than one. Any amount of troubleshooting during FTUE is a user gone forever. The solution to any amount of friction is "Install Windows" or "return this laptop and go buy a Macbook Air".

None of that is unreasonable. Those are perfectly reasonable expectations and reactions to these issues.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 3 points 7 months ago

I'm on Mint, which is one of the most-recommended distros to newbs around. Good luck persuading new users that they should change their distro every time they run into an issue like this. However you may choose to word it, these are exactly the issues that will stop widespread adoption.

Also, I'd like to know which distro actually supports autoscroll.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com -2 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I highly suggest windows for both of you. If minor issues like this bother you while major issues like data collection and ad pushing dont and you dont want to participate in making linux better by submitting bug reports then linux may just not be for you.

Its very much like owning a house or a ranch. You‘re free of others and can do whatever you like. But you do have to do your own maintenance.

If you want to go back paying rent for a shoebox apartment, thats your choice.

[–] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

And that's exactly why it will never be the year of the Linux desktop... you know, the claim of this entire post.

Unless Linux appeals to the lowest common denominator, like Windows, it will never become a major replacement.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 1 points 7 months ago

Small apartments will always be the norm. You are right. :)

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

If minor issues like this bother you while major issues like data collection and ad pushing dont

As I pointed out, I'm using it because MS is screwing the pooch with those issues.

you dont want to participate in making linux better by submitting bug reports

These are known issues, and have been around for more than a decade. They're not bugs, they're missing basic features. But sure, go ahead and assume stuff.

Its very much like owning a house or a ranch. You‘re free of others and can do whatever you like. But you do have to do your own maintenance.

If you want to go back paying rent for a shoebox apartment, thats your choice.

It's probably closer to renting a apartment vs owning a shack (or it was, before said screwing of said pooch). You can upgrade it into a mansion if you want, but that's not where you start.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com -1 points 7 months ago (2 children)

As I pointed out, I'm using it because MS is screwing the pooch with those issues.

Fair enough

These are known issues, and have been around for more than a decade. They're not bugs, they're missing basic features.

Then make a fork and or PR. i‘m only around two years and I make the stuff I need.

But sure, go ahead and assume stuff.

As a human does since your small text can never have full information needed to know everything. For the sake of discussing things I have to either ask and widen the scope of the discussion or I assume where it seems appropriate and you correct me if I‘m wrong. Sorry if that is new to you.

It's probably closer to renting a apartment vs owning a shack (or it was, before said screwing of said pooch). You can upgrade it into a mansion if you want, but that's not where you start.

If thats your opinion I‘d like to own a „shack“ because in germany, where I live, the houses even need maintenance and repairs if you buy them.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

A more classic example of linux users pushing others away, I could not have come up with.

"I have so-and-so issue"

"Fork the OS and fix it yourself!"

Yeah, no. I already spend 8 hours a day programming, I'd like my free time to be spent elsewhere, thanks.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I‘m a tech myself and I know this discussion from 100 times this has occured.

  1. someone complaining about something openly instead of using the proper channels
  2. someone suggesting they use the proper channels
  3. they denying that its an issue they can help fix but a general failing of the software/vendor (typical proprietary software-user behavior)
  4. person trying to help pointing out that this is not helpful behavior
  5. person complaining getting defensive and falling for a logical fallacy instead of seeing their mistake.

But yeah, good luck mate.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)
  1. someone complaining about something openly instead of using the proper channels

I refer you back to my original statement. I was not asking how to do something. I was grousing that basic tasks are extremely user-unfriendly to configure. I've fixed it on my computer. That's not the topic under discussion.

  1. someone suggesting they use the proper channels

What proper channels? We're in a post claiming it's the YOTLD again, because OP apparently doesn't realise it's been claimed every year for the last couple decades. I'm posting about why that's not gonna happen this year either.

  1. they denying that its an issue they can help fix but a general failing of the software/vendor (typical proprietary software-user behavior)

I could fix it. However, I have no intention of opening a PR and spending what little free time I have contributing to open source (I'll contribute money, but not my time). Kudos to those who do write and maintain open source, but that's not for me.

  1. & 5.

I think you can see how we've diverged into entirely different directions already.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I can see your point and appreciate you elaborating.

You do see that you went there, right?

"I have so-and-so issue" "Fork the OS and fix it yourself!"

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Because, please don't make that recommendation to anybody else. Of all the places for somebody to start contributing to open source, linux is probably among the top in complexity. And if it's a new user, as per the original topic of this post, and they can't figure out their issue from the million guides online, you're just ensuring they make a speedy return to windows.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Sad, we were almost aligning here. Now we will just have to disagree here.

I will make this exact recommendation to everyone in every situation because the end user mentality is making us speedrun our planet to shit. People need to take responsibility for their own stuff instead of letting corporations control them. This obviously means they need to relearn that an error is not a sign of bad code/software but something that can happen. The perfectionism this world is succumbing to is a cancer that will kill us all.

But good luck anyway.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You're suggesting that every user should learn programming. All 8 billion people. How do you not see the ridiculousness of that suggestion.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 1 points 7 months ago

Hahaha. Yeah, exactly. Right after I suggested everyone work at mcdonalds. Whatever it is you’re taking, its either too much or not enough.

[–] melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The "make a fork" thing is part of the issue, I think. In general there's this culture in the open source community that if you want a feature, you should implement it yourself and not expect the maintainers to implement it for you. And that's good advice to some extent, it's great to encourage more people to volunteer and it's great to discourage entitlement.

But on the other hand, this is toxic because not everyone can contribute. Telling non-technical users to "make it yourself" is essentially telling them to fuck off. To use the house metaphor, people don't usually need to design and renovate their houses on their own, because that's not their skillset, and it's unreasonable to expect that anyone who wants a house should become an architect.

Even among technical users, there are reasons they can't contribute. Not everyone has time to contribute to FOSS, and that's especially notable for non-programmers who would have to get comfortable with writing code and contributing in the first place.

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 7 months ago

I appreciate you elaborating on this. Let me try and explain this:

Imo you’re on point with the house metaphor. People dont have the skills to redesign and repair their house.

Thats why they pay people to do it. They get a carpenter to fix their floor, a painter to fresh up the outside walls, an electrician to fix that damn outlet thats acting up. Some house owners have to forgo vacations because they need repairs done this season. They also spread out repairs and live with a broken thing in between.

And the same works for software. I dont mind fixing something in your software, as long as you pay me. Part of the problem is that companies made people believe that everything can be perfect and free. Its like Odysseus going insane by the song of the mermaids. Its a trap. Real software isnt perfect.

Next point is people cant controbute:

People can always contribute. Not everyone can code but they can press the report button and try to be concise in describing the problem, they can help translating, they can help packaging if they know their way around files and much more. The issue is that its uncomfortable to do something while we are used to getting paid for most things and also are used to get perfect proprietary software.

Again, thanks for answering and have a good one.