Pretty sure this is happening in my game : rpgmemes

[–] Derpykat5@ttrpg.network 6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

The big problem with twists like these...

If you know they're coming, it sort of ruins the surprise. If the GM asks if it's okay to have party betrayal (or if someone else asks and the GM says yes) then you're constantly on the lookout for it - because why would they ask if it was irrelevant? Of course, nothing says the GM can't ask an irrelevant question in the same manner they keep irrelevant minis next to their screen, but it's something that's usually frowned upon (what amounts to non-consensual PVP), so if it's known to be ok, you'll be looking out for it and then the twist won't stick.

Of course, if you don't know it's coming, then it's never a place your brain will go. You aren't just going to accuse a character (and thus player) of working against the party because that's a heavy accusation. It carries a lot of weight behind it since you're only a few steps down from calling someone a problem player. Players often don't have a good enough grasp on other players' characters to notice behavioral shifts, and players often don't have good enough acting skills to roleplay them correctly.

I've yet to hear a story where someone figured this kind of twist out before the reveal, and that doesn't surprise me at all.

[–] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 2 points 18 hours ago

You could privately talk to your GM and say your character wants to cover all of their bases, so just like batman, spends time strategizing about how to defeat the other party members and making preparations in case they betray the group or him. Like a ring of concentration that also has an anti-magic curse activated when the correct word is spoken in its vicinity for the mage, secretly planted on the body of a mob that your character manages to get to before the party loots.

And then, of course, you're in a position where you could betray the party and surprise even the GM.

Though a counter argument to what you're saying is that deception games are a thing and the players knowing that there are enemies in the group doesn't make those games trivial to figure out. A deception RPG could be interesting to play.

[–] megane_kun@lemmy.zip 5 points 22 hours ago

I had to play my own evil doppelganger in my DM's campaign.

My character got kidnapped and got replaced by a copy, which was there to spy on the party (the DM only gave me enough info to work with at the beginning). I was given some powers which my character didn't have and started to abuse them. The DM specifically allowed for infinite uses of "Detect Thoughts" (lvl 2 spell, which I only had three uses at level 6), which I put to maximum use, on every NPC encounter the party had.

It seemed that none of the other players noticed, so I started putting on more chaos and evil in "chaotic evil doppelganger". I started having them act in a more sadistic and erratic manner, but still no effect.

I started asking other players (out of the game) what if there were an impostor in the party, but not much response. The only halfway decent response I got is a "who cares, if they're helping the party, it shouldn't matter." I gave up at that point. My character, and the one the doppelganger is a copy of, is the party healer.

I got used to playing him normally (me, the player handling the doppelganger as if it were the original, just with more powers, and a slight personality alteration) until the DM informed me that it's time to pull off the reveal.

I was caught by surprise, but I knew I had to do my part.

After what was supposed to be the boss battle, the DM gave me the signal and I said "It's been fun, guys, it really was, but unfortunately..."

The rest of the party was alarmed, and the DM had me fight the party, with monsters coming to my aid. Now, the party's out of a healer, and had to fight a horde of monsters.

Some of the other player characters (based on their characterization) were reluctant to fight my doppleganger, but I tried my best to goad them into fighting.

My character isn't the best fighter, but I did an effort. I knew the party's weakest link (my original character) but also, how the glass cannons worked. So I started directing the monsters to target them first. It was a close fight, but teetering on a TPK. The DM then introduced my original character (controlled by the DM temporarily) who swopped in to save the day.

There were lots of swearing after the DM ended the session that day.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 18 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

What's funnier is when everyone already knows you're playing an evil character, but all their attempts to prove it in-game, even through meta-gaming, fail because the dice are on my side (evil). The best was when the DM just gave me an ability to straight up magically kill 1 person a day with a touch attack and I killed the main quest giver. Just to test it out. I was all alone with him and through my extremely high skills of deception and persuasion--and the paladin's shitty dice rolls--I convinced the party they died of a heart attack.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Skill issue.

PvP dialogue checks only work on other players if they allow them to, because every player can effectively set the difficulty of the check to "impossible"

This is just how the mechanics are supposed to work, btw. Persuasion checks are rarely supposed to be simple +0 contested rolls. The DM sets the difficulty for NPCs, but only you are supposed to be able to say how difficult it is to persuade your character of something.

Further, even a contested success doesn't always equal a complete success. If the paladin is willing to buy the heart attack story because there's no actual evidence otherwise they might still decide to harbor suspicions that make the next check harder, for example.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Uh... What? Your skills are still just a d20+bonuses even against another player. Their sense motive check has to beat my bluff check to catch my lie.

I roll d20, add my whopping 33 bonus to it and that's the DC the other player's sense motive has to beat.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

Wrong. For one thing, players don't have to agree to contested persuasion at all, feel free to look that up. Even if they do it's not just a simple dice contest, otherwise every face character would have free mind control over their entire party.

For example:

Player Elon Musk throws a Nazi salute. He uses his Deception +6 to claim that's not what it is, rolls a 5 for a total of 11.

Player Not A Moron rolls a 1. This does not matter, because they know what they saw, and further, they remember all that other Nazi shit he's been saying. They have effectly set their own Deception/Persuasion check DC to 30+, or roll+bonus+30 circumstance bonus.

Player Stupid Fucking Simp rolls a 20. This also does not matter because, as a stupid fucking simp, they already believe everything Elon says and take a -30 circumstantial negative and critical success skill checks are silly homebrew nonsense.

Tl;Dr you're forgetting that circumstance, including character emotions and affection, affects difficulty of all skill checks. If a player agrees to ignore that that's on them.

This also, btw, applies to NPCs trying to persuade the party. The DM does not a have a right to tell your character what they believe or disbelieve without magical effects.

If you think about it, beyond the fact of the player being the only one can say what their character is in totality and is biased towards as a result, this is how a system must work to prevent RPG horror stories of incels forcing other players into sexual or abusive situations, eg "ummm I rolled a +29 so your character has to sleep with mine and you have to roleplay it"

[–] webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Wouldn't that be metagaming?

I know general game mechanics pretty well to perceive many things a character would not know. I am pretty sure that in the spirit of roleplay i have to adjust to my characters Stats.

In the example it would be Elon rolling their deception against my intelligence/perception, which whatever skill the Dm decides is most relevant. Also because the game Master is always right and has the final say as an actual dictator.

The player abuse and sex stuff just seems like a consent issue. There are probably groups that are into that just like there are many that don’t. A good Dm and play group should communicate beforehand if they allow such things and also respect peoples wish to stop playing if they are uncomfortable.

They can also use the x-card system

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

It could be, but it doesn't have to be. It all depends on the characters involved.

The DM can referee in the dispute but they (usually) can't say your character would or wouldn't believe something.

A good DM might ask you to in-character justify your bias, for example. They're also supposed to listen if you say "I don't trust Count Fuckface on account of him having a history of being a Fuckface and also he's standing over a cooling corpse with bloody hands."

If a player is metagaming that's a separate problem from their character being biased, or having a reasonably justified suspicion or whatever.

Or never, ever being interested in the creepy player's character because they don't like their vibes.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 2 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

In what edition of the rules, for what system, and what page number of that rulebook would I find your version of these rules in?

They are not forced to believe anything; but they also can't tell a lie was made unless they beat the bluff check with an opposing sense motive.

You might have a point if instead of suggesting the guy I killed had a heart attack, I suggested the paladin killed him and he was made to fully believe that. That's not how persuasion works, even in PvE.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

Every edition since at least 3.0.

In the sections describing how skills work and what circumstances you should allow checks for them, and the sections describing bonuses to those checks, what the role of the DMs and players are, including several very specific references to how character attitudes are very important to the DCs of those checks and the fact that skills only affect those attitudes in the first place and they aren't mind control.

In other words, the whole fucking thing.

[–] Famko@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This depends on the table and their own rules honestly. In my DM's table we go for a contested roll of deception/insight between our players or between NPCs. Now this might not be RAW, but we do it that way and we like it since it creates funny and interesting scenarios.

And for the RPG horror stories bit, I don't think that if the DM is trying to force something that they'll just obey the dice blindly if they aren't in their favour. They're just gonna turn around and say "oh no, you didn't pass the DC / my NPC also has +30 to his persuasion, you lose."

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 0 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

Sure, you can agree to anything.

If you didn't think it through and thus suffer from skill issues.

And there are of course good stories to tell with it, like in this secret traitor situation, and good players will apply circumstantial bonuses fairly.

Like perhaps that paladin doesn't WANT to believe their comrade is a murderer.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware that another player can't force you into simple contested rolls on the nature of reality that you can't possibly contest, ever.

Hell, even if they're right! You can play a completely deluded madman that looks at a windmill, hears an NPC tell him the absolute, objective truth that it is a windmill, and decides it's a giant instead.

[–] Famko@lemmy.world 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

I mean, that's why in any such contested roll between PCs you should have both parties agree to the roll and just see how the dice land? And if they don't agree to it, they're free to roleplay it how they wish to. That's how we do it at least.

I don't see why you have to call someone's preference on how to play a "skill issue" though.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but from their response and seeing this situation happen so often it sure doesn't seem like the players are aware that all skill checks have inherently circumstantial difficulties.

Simple roll vs roll contests just tend to be the default of players that haven't read the rules for these circumstances, something about the way the game is set up just doesn't clue players into that fact.

Maybe it's just that players simply aren't primed to accept that they can set their own DC bonus and it's not even metagaming? It's basically the only circumstance that they can. It's probably a good DM habit to get into, come to think. "What's your character's willingness to believe this" type prompting.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

Those circumstancial bonuses or penalties are given by the DM. If the DM doesn't inform the players what they are for the current situation, thats the fault of the DM, not the players. It also still is just a d20+bonuses. Those circumstantial things are part of the bonuses applied to the roll.

Where are you getting that players set the DC themselves? It's set like everything else: By rolling the dice and applying all applicable bonuses and penalties. Now, I still play 3.5 and the rules for bluff vs sense motive are quite clear in the book that the player using sense motive has to just get a higher score than the bluff score. It does not at all differentiate between NPCs or PCs. And why should it? It already makes sense where the DC is coming from.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

The DM sets the mental circumstances for their characters and you set yours.

Your character is not summed in its entirety by their skill bonuses, and the DM by definition does not know your character better than the person playing them.

That character, like any other person, can refuse to believe something they don't want to believe, for whatever reason makes sense to them.

For example, they could ignore someone telling them an objective truth they could easily verify themselves by reading the relevant portion of the DMG.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I still would like to know what relevant portion of the DMG you are referring. I know of no such table for any kind of "mental circumstances" or anything close to what you're describing. It sounds like homebrew stuff or confusion with some rules regarding psyonic abilities.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

The multiple sections where it says the DM doesn't control the PCs and describes the mechanics and reasons to roll skill checks in the first place.

Having a section describing how to do a contested roll isn't the same thing as saying that is how you handle all player vs player skill checks, and it assumes you know that circumstances should affect the rolls beyond the numbers on your character sheet.

Tbf 5.0 is actually pretty bad about splitting up this information between the PHB and DMG, and assuming players have a better grasp of the whole picture than it should.

For example, in that Contested Roll section, it has this paragraph:

"Both participants in a contest make ability checks appropriate to their efforts. They apply all appropriate bonuses and penalties, but instead of comparing the total to a DC, they compare the totals of their two checks. The participant with the higher check total wins the contest. That character or monster either succeeds at the action or prevents the other one from succeeding."

It assumes you know this has to be used with the sections describing things like environmental and attitude bonuses, and the sections on player agency and cooperative play, or for that matter NPC attitude tiers and how those specifically work with Deception and Persuasion, but it's easy to gloss over that line and think it simply refers to a character stat line.

It also assumes you know that rolling that as contest was an option and not a requirement in the first place.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

The DM isn't controlling the players. The player of the paladin is choosing to use sense motive against my bluff checks.

Again, any circumstancial penalties or bonuses that are not inherent on your sheet are typically given by the DM. Such as you entering a room that has some kind of field or obstacle that imposes a penalty or confers a buff. It does not mean that a player can say "I have a super high iron will and so I get a +40 to any mind affecting spells!"

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 0 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Not what I'm saying, and I know you don't understand the problem, because you're talking about spell save DCs which are not skill checks and are specifically under DM purview as a magical mind altering effect.

Think of it like this:

You have the right, as a player, to decide your character fucking hates someone so much they will not believe a word they say under any circumstance.

That would be, in terms of interpreting that to mechanics, setting the Skill DC to "impossible." Which is ALWAYS AN OPTION FOR SKILL CHECKS. You can not jump to heaven with an Athletics check (normally speaking).

It could be you're metagaming, but that's a separate problem beyond the scope of skill, ability, and spell save checks.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Holy shit. No. I am not talking about spell save DCs; I am talking about circumstances that would provide a bonus or penalty that might not appear on your character sheet, using magical effects as an example.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 0 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Yes, you are, and you don't know enough to know what you just said.

"I have a super high iron will and so I get a +40 to any mind affecting spells!"

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Let's use a different example then.

The characters have entered a room where the wind is absolutely howling, affecting their hearing, movement and balance. Anything they do in that room that requires a listen, movement or a balance check, has a -5 penalty. That is a circumstancial penalty.

The same can be done through magical means.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Sure.

And you as the player are the one who decides what the metaphorical wind is like for your character's attitude towards the people and world around them.

Don't trust the king? Good news, you can tell the DM that, and they can't say "yes you do" unless you are affected by magic. They also can't roll the king's Persuasion to change your character's mind about that without you agreeing to how the DC is set, including potentially a straight contested roll.

Or, to put it another way:

Just because they didn't find a trap in the hallway doesn't mean they have to think there isn't one, especially if there's a posted sign saying "This hallway is trapped."

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

There is a difference between "you believe what they say" and "you can't tell if they are lying." The sense motive roll's outcome only says whether or not they can tell if another character is lying; not even what the lie is or have anything to affect their personal belief. He might know the cleric is a bad guy; he just can't prove it.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

And he can think whatever the fuck he wants about that, which is entirely my point, because he, as a theoretically sentient being, is aware that he is flawed.

Unless there's a character driven reason not to! Arrogance, naivete, backstory, whatever.

But, more pressingly, my point is to make you aware that there are more options available to the system for Deception checks than pure statblock measuring! And every table should be aware of that!

As well as the fact that Persuasion and Deception are not mind control.

Which I'm still not convinced you are, because this argument is still going.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 0 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

As well as the fact that Persuasion and Deception are not mind control.

No fucking shit. I agree with that, my argument is that knowing the truth and believing it are two different things. It doesn't affect their beliefs or motivations; it's a god damn lie detector test.

At this point I can only come to two conclusions: You either don't have a strong grasp of English or you are willfully not reading what I am saying.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

And

A

Player

Can

Decide

They

Do

Not

Care

What

The

Lie

Detector

Says

Or

How

It's

Calibrated

It's a particularly interesting example you've chosen given that lie detectors are fucking pseudoscience and a specific character might not believe one single fucking thing they say

[–] TheGiantKorean@lemmy.today 73 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

This happened in my game. I spoke with the player about having his character swapped with another version of him from an alternate universe, and he was down for it. Then it happened in game. None of the players realized it. This went on for years (literal real time years) before he betrayed them. It was delicious.

[–] ragas@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Of course literal time years. It would be about a decade before an actual ingame year has passed.

[–] Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Do y'all not handwave down/travel time?

[–] ragas@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago

No. At best we get something like 3-4 days of ingame downtime.

Travel time is part of the dungeon.

[–] Ziggurat@jlai.lu 64 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Having the traitor in the party, has a binary result, it'es either one of the best campaign you'll play, or a horror story, no middle ground

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 day ago

It's certainly one way to get the table to listen to you when you tell them for the last goddamn time, you're not DMing the next campaign...

[–] otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago

... Because it's you, isn't it.

[–] iAmTheTot@sh.itjust.works 22 points 2 days ago (8 children)

Ah man did this just spoil The Good Place for me?

[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 46 points 2 days ago (4 children)

iamthetot@sh.itjust.works No. But you should binge season 1 ASAP before people start telling you why it doesn't.

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[–] Hoimo@ani.social 5 points 1 day ago

The Good Place is unspoilable, I enjoyed it much more when I knew some of the plot points beforehand.

[–] yermaw@sh.itjust.works 22 points 2 days ago

You havent even watched it yet? What the fork, ash-hole?

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago

No they both just have sinister laughing face. This is actually in response to a clown doing a hijink

[–] Dadifer@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

No

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 19 points 2 days ago

Got betrayed in a Forgotten Realms game by a guy who'd been playing his own doppleganger for nearly two months.

He scorching ray'd me in the back, then yelled at me for missing all the obvious clues. It hurt twice.

[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

stamets@lemmy.dbzer0.com I was going to do this to my table. We only have 2 PCs currently (my wife and stepson), so I gave them a GMPC guide who was supposed to be the BBEG in disguise.

But they came to love the GMPC, and I can't do that to them, so now he's just their pet human.

[–] Jesus_666@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

That's probably where I'd plan for a later twist where the GMPC was actually the BBEG at one point but got replaced by the current, more ruthless BBEG. There'd be a whole succession of people of varying evilness sharing the same name and title. Kind of like a Dread Pirate Roberts situation.

[–] otacon239@lemmy.world 14 points 2 days ago

This is sort of the case with my game. After 4 years, I just revealed to the party that the ‘big bad’ villain is actually my childhood friend and that she may not be as much of a threat as she’s letting on. I don’t actually know who the real villain is.

[–] Jesus_666@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago

I remember a one-shot that had a twist like that - followed by the twist of the recently disarmed fighter removing his armored gauntlets, pointing at the traitor, and casting the system's equivalent of Magic Missile. As he pulled his magic sheet out of his pocket he explained that he'd just been a misleadingly strong and well-armored wizard all along but hadn't told anyone but the GM.

That was a fun little moment.

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