this post was submitted on 31 Mar 2025
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    The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.

    And yet... linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as "not growing the userbase"

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    [–] Default_Defect@midwest.social 11 points 6 days ago (1 children)

    RTFM is great when it covers the problem you're having, but I've seen multiple times in various forums, when the problem isn't covered by the manual or the solution isn't immediately obvious, the user is just ignored entirely. Some people have a really weird "linux doesn't have any issues, its the user's fault" attitude.

    [–] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 6 days ago

    Last year I got told to RTFM and was linked to a documentation page that said

    STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION

    Which was very helpful

    [–] Morph9@lemmy.zip 11 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

    People don't have the time/will to research alternatives, that's why most of us follow trends. It's the old mantra "if is good enough for him...", and honestly, i don't feel to blame anyone. Computers by now are a necessary tool and people want an easy "switch an play" solution to use it.

    [–] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 1 points 5 days ago

    As some who first tried Linux in the '90s, uses it at work, and has it on at least one device at home, I disagree. Linux got easier, but so did windows. I do t daily drive Linux because software I need just will not run on my current distro as-is and would take hours of my time to troubleshoot and maybe get working.

    When I went to upgrade that distro (Mint) it also had all kinds of stuff that required manual intervention that someone without Linux knowledge would have had a much harder time with

    [–] RushLana@lemmy.blahaj.zone 130 points 1 week ago (14 children)

    RTFM is not a working formula. Because most people skip reading the manual for one simple reason, the manual is hard to read.

    I remember my early arch days when asking a question about an issue I'm having was always met with a wikipage I already read but did not understand.

    Rather than pushing for a magic manual, the best is to provide sane default or point to tutorials.

    [–] EmoPolarbear@lemmy.ca 86 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    The best is when people tell you to RTFM and the information you need just straight up isn't there.

    [–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 39 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    just google it and the google is just a reddit post that says [deleted]

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    [–] heavy@sh.itjust.works 84 points 1 week ago (9 children)

    I mean, people are gonna bite my head off for this, but most non technical folks are turned off by someone calling them stupid... That's what "RTFM" sounds like. I think there needs to be a culture change to drive adoption, but stuff like the Steam Deck is helping a lot.

    [–] pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip 46 points 1 week ago

    Even technical folks aren't huge fans of RTFM.

    If I'm doing something incredibly interesting, and I'm asking for help, I should RTFM.

    If I'm doing something routine, we can (and usually do, now), make it simple enough not to need a manual.

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    [–] PieMePlenty@lemmy.world 64 points 1 week ago (12 children)

    I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
    If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
    Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.

    [–] pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

    I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.

    Yes, when we install Linux on something that didn't ship with Linux installed.

    But in an apples to apples scenario - pre-installed OS provided by the manufacturer, it's Windows that comes with more bullshit.

    And there are (finally!) plenty of options to buy a pre-installed Linux computer, today.

    It's a tiny fraction as many as pre-installed Windows or Mac, of course. But it's still plenty. There's a half dozen companies with solid reputations and hardware specialties, and I only need one.

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    [–] green@feddit.nl 46 points 1 week ago (15 children)

    Windows users and Linux users are not seeking the same thing from their machines. The common mistake I often see from Linux advocates.

    From personal experience, when I was a Windows user, I didn't care (or even know) about privacy, open-source software, nor owning my machine. I didn't care if I had to sign up for a Microsoft account, and I never changed defaults ever (except for my wallpaper). I just wanted the machine to turn-on, work, and play some games.

    Why am I bringing this up? Because Linux requires the user care about their machine and defaults. You need to know your architecture, graphics card, and threat-model. You need to know what your apps are called and where they come from. You need to know what tools you need to troubleshoot (and devs will not help you). This is the biggest the pain-point of Linux. Do not succumb to the survivorship bias of RTFM or command-line.

    This issue cannot be fixed from simplifying Linux interfaces (though we should do this anyway!). The soul of Linux is adventure, collaboration, and tinkering. To get the most from your machine, you're going to have to interact with several communities. This is what makes Linux great, and frankly I do not think we should kill this for the general public - this is how you get enshittification.

    The general public needs to understand that incompetence (being brain-dead) will lead to misery. It is simply the rule of the land. You need to care and you need to collaborate. We should not welcome nor accommodate users that refuse to do this.

    [–] MintyFresh@lemmy.world 39 points 1 week ago (11 children)

    I switched to Linux mint because I don't want to think about those things. I barely know how to use the terminal, and probably won't anytime soon. I just pulled the apps I needed off the software manager. I'm as happy as a clam in shit.

    An OS that just works, without the constant bullshit that capitalism breeds always encroaching. It does what I want when I want it, no more no less.

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    [–] cronenthal@discuss.tchncs.de 43 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Windows is to Linux what McDonald's is to cooking your own food.

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    [–] Apocalypteroid@lemmy.world 42 points 1 week ago (20 children)

    I'm probably gonna get hated on for this but here's my story:

    About 3 weeks ago I bought a new gaming laptop with no OS with the intention of installing Linux myself and ditching Windows.

    I'd read a lot online about how Linux was now competitive with Windows as Linux emulators could run Windows games with a 10-15% boost in performance. I read that it was all a case of finding the right distro and that Linux is much more user friendly and compatible now. So I did a little research, made myself a ventoy boot USB with Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Pop, Garuda and Fedora to see which one I liked best.

    None of them worked properly. All of them had weird little quirks. Some I could live with, some were completely infuriating. So l did a little tinkering as I was determined not to give in. None of the distros detected my hardware properly, and so I went away found forums with similar issues and I fixed most of them. However, no matter what I tried I could not get the laptop speakers to work. No problem, I thought, I'll be either using headphones or BT to my soundbar (as that worked fine). So having given up on the speaker issue, I downloaded some games. In all of the distros they ran like shit. Sound bugs, laggy game play, some wouldn't play at all. Again, I tried tinkering with the settings, using a different version of proton, different sound drivers, different graphics settings, different commands and programs which might solve the issues. No. Each different distro threw up different issues which I spent hours and researching and experimenting. I tried a few more distros and found new issues which needed more research and more experimenting.

    Over the three weeks or so I was trying I became irritable and depressed. I'd spent a lot of money on the laptop and I was unable to use it because no matter what I tried, even with relatively low resource hungry games, they did not run well at all, and even linux itself seemed slow and unresponsive in comparison to what I was used to.

    So after hours and hours of climbing the walls and snapping at my wife and neglecting my kid, I downloaded Windows. And everything just works. There are bespoke programs for my graphics card and everything in my steam library runs beautifully with very minimal tinkering. So now I have a dual boot system, windows for games only and Linux for everything else.

    I hate that I'm still enthralled to Windows, but seriously, Linux is just not ready for mass adoption. If something doesn't work on Windows , it's usually a case of just downloading the correct driver and Windows normally knows which one you need. If something doesn't work on Linux it's a slog through paragraphs of text which all assume some basic knowledge of coding or Linux's file system or some other jargon, or watching endless YouTube videos and then still getting nowhere. As a working husband and father I just do not have the time to put into it.

    Tl;Dr - Windows is much easier than Linux. That's why everyone uses Windows.

    [–] Comptero@lemmy.world -1 points 6 days ago

    You sound like a Windows power user and of course linux will be harder because you are not used to it.

    I had a simmilar first months until I was used to linux. Now I find many things much more convinient in Linux.

    And yes there is hardware that works in windows but not in linux like there is hardware that wont work in macos. But over time you will only buy stuff that is compatible and you wont think about it anymore.

    Thats why I recommend dual booting at the start because sometimes you need to get shit done without trying to learn the new way and so you don't get burnt out. But if you keep at it you will start to use windows less and less.

    [–] pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip 42 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

    Oof. Sorry you had such a bad experience.

    Pro tip for others: It takes time for volunteers to reverse engineer new proprietary laptop hardware.

    If the laptop manufacturers aren't advertising Linux support, it's up to the community to play guess and check, to figure out what the proprietary drivers do.

    You might get lucky and pick the same exact model as a passionate reverse engineer. Or you might not.

    With old stuff, your odds are much better that someone has figured it out for you.

    For new hardware, it's still essential to pick a vendor that chooses to write and release Linux drivers.

    This will get better when truly open hardware platforms gain popularity.

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