this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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[–] ndru@lemmy.world 126 points 1 year ago (5 children)

When native English speakers complain that changing pronouns is too hard 🧐

[–] moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

man I have that issue but it's not (just) me being an asshole I actually just suck at remembering that people have transitioned

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Best move I ever made was leaving for college and coming back with tits. That shock stuck in my friends heads

[–] GlitchyDigiBun@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Home-grown or store-bought?

[–] moistclump@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

“If you can’t grow your own, store bought is fine.”

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[–] drathvedro@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Are there any spanish people? Is it based on person's gender or the following word's gender?

e.g. in Russian, "nebinarniy chelovek" means nonbinary human but in male declension because the word human itself is male, and "nebinarnaya persona" is female because the word person is female. We also have "nebimarnoye litso" where "litso" is face or a person and it's a third gender literally called soulless and beloved by police and lawyers because its dehumanizing

[–] Goun@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago

Interesting! It's based on the subject's gender. In spanish, human is male and person is female as well, but we don't have a third gender.

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[–] sun_is_ra@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Does make sense? In don't speak Spanish so I don't get the joke

[–] Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The joke is:
Non-binary refers to people not identifying with either being exclusive male nor female.

The post shows someone asking ChatGPT what this is called in spanish.
As spanish seems to have gender for nouns, this defeats the purpose of being neither female/male.

[–] moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

also chatgpt says "depending on the gender of the person", which is funny as they're referring to a person that does not identify with male or female

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[–] Zeth0s@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

A non binary person would be "una persona non binaria", which is a gendered word, female.

It partially makes sense. Non-binary in Spanish is gendered depending on the subject. But it is not a real gender. Person is "female", human being is "male". But they are generic words

[–] itsralC@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's an adjective so it must match the gender of the noun before it. So if you want to say non-binary person, since person is femenine, you'd say "persona no binaria". Unfortunately, however, most nouns change gender depending on the gender of the person referred to. So you can't say non-binary gardener without resorting to "made up" grammar.

[–] Fleshtrap@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think there is a grammatical rule for it, if you refer to a group of multi-gendered subjects you use the male suffix, so "no binario" would be the correct term to use.

[–] MudMan@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Well, that's more or less true, although contested politically, but it certainly doesn't help when referring to individuals.

That said, the obsession with grammatical gender in pronouns is largely an anglosphere import, and the introduction of neolanguage neutral forms to Spanish is definitely not gaining the traction it does for English speakers. It simply messes with too many words too much of the time.

However, anyone who thinks native Spanish speakers don't mess around with pronouns needs to go hang out with some young people (or, you know, some LGBTQ people of any age), because man, the amount of gender flipping and going back and forth for effect you get in colloquial Spanish is both hilarious and definitely not compatible with "pronouns are evil" anglo conservatism.

So hey, the AI got it sorta right. Remove the "gender of the person" there, and add "how you feel about it" and it's pretty spot-on.

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[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Imagine if you’d asked it for a vegetarian recipe and it asked if you wanted it to have a chicken or beef base. It’s sorta like that

[–] gerryflap@feddit.nl 8 points 1 year ago

The joke is that someone who is non-binary doesn't identify as male or female, yet Spanish is a gendered language and thus ChatGPT provides male and female forks of the word "non-binary".

[–] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago

In Spanish, everything is gendered, usually descenable by an -a or -o ending.

So Spanish requires you to pick the male/female linguistic gender to refer to a person in order to say that their gender doesn't fit on the male/female binary.

I believe Spanish speakers just resolve it by using -o by default, because linguistic gender is not identical to social gender.

It's roughly like if English made you say "they're masculine-non-binary".

[–] S_H_K@lemmy.fmhy.net 4 points 1 year ago

As a Spanish speaker the joke does make sense as is referring to how Spanish is usually spoken but it misses the detail that there's now the use of new gendered words. Is really hard to explain in just a post but is a preview substantives in Spanish have a gender even things that you wouldn't consider gendered they have it it affects the use of the words and how you address people.
For example a simple word like "the" note that table is mesa and book es libro sona simple translation like The table >becomes> La mesa The book >becomes> El libro The translates to La or El depending of the "gender" of the word. Is not that we consider every book male and every table female but we use gendered pronouns for objects and there is gendered words for everything that refers to a person. For example nurse translates to Enfermero or Enfermera depending if you talk about a msle or female person respectively, note the word ends in o or a now the troubles are if you're using plurals it will be Enfermeros and Enfermeras and the first refers to a group of people that can be all male or mixed male and female but the second refers to a group of people that is only composed of females and worse of all nonbinary people are not comprehended into any of this. You see the language is always throwing everything into male female bins even unwillingly and for a non gender conforming person that's hell. Now we could fill a book with how we are handling it but it has been tried to use the letter e returning to the nurse examples it will be Enfermere but the particle now is Le Enfermere and Les Enfermeres and now the second would be totally gender neutral and refers to a group of nurse people no matter the sex. But there's a truckload more nuances. General neutral and how we use it is an ongoing problem in Spanish that we haven't fixed it yet, and there's no general concensus Of where is going.

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