Core gameplay - The main gameplay element of a game, for example Dodging, rolling and spacing combat in Elden Ring, Monster Hunter. Character placement, team builds, XCOM, TRPGs

Sub system - Mini games or the social systems in Persona games, a secondary gameplay element that is different and unrelated to core gameplay

I've enjoyed Yakuza Infinite Wealth, FF7 Rebirth and Persona these few years which led me to think that I enjoyed "JRPGS" so I booted up old "Tales of" game (action battle) and am having a hard time pushing through

I then realised that the JRPGs I've played have a lot of investment into sub systems, Yakuza basically being a collection of minigames polished over several series. FF7 adding even more mini games than the original in a 1/3 installment and also having a non turn based system and Atlus' games having a large chunk of it being a dating sim on top of its flashy UI for the turn based battles.

I think the core reason is that other gameplay mechanics, from driving to shooting to RTS to combat have high skill ceilings such that people playing CS can transition to Overwatch and then to Marvel Rivals and maintain their level of training over years. RTS have high skill floors for PVP. Meanwhile for single player RPGs without deep builds and customisation, you should be able to complete the story and endgame with grinding or items or clever builds. The first 2 being the easiest and least 'fun'

This has led to mainstream JRPGs needing sub systems to support the price tag while CRPGs like Baldurs Gate 3 have builds and branching stories to make it fun and replayable.

On the other hand Dragon Quest 3 hd-2d remake sold like gangbusters so maybe I'm off on this

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[–] MrScottyTay@sh.itjust.works 15 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

OG FFVII is full of minigames. I don't think rebirth has more than the OG, also it's like half of the game not a third (the last disc is just the final dungeon, and the second disc is not as long as the first).

When the OG does a minigame it's often a one and done thing. Rebirth madness it feel like more because you can go back and do more of each minigame with increasing difficulties etc.

I think subsystems just lend very well to JRPGs because they're often trying to create a world, and adding such to their games makes their worlds feel more full. I also think the Japanese do their game development different to the west most of the time. Since a lot of these minigames are made because developers have finished the parts of the main game they were working on so they mess around trying to make something new and fun that might be able to be tacked on as an extra.

[–] De_Narm@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

From my point of view, you've got it wrong, but so do many developers. A good JRPG is all about resource management. Your HP, MP, items, money and the balance between these and your EXP and equipment. Combat is simply a drain on your resources up until the final boss, which should require more strategy. This needs something akin to a dungeon without constant healing and money being a thight resource. Once you're in a dungeon, you should either be prepped or doomed.

You mostly see this done in dungeon crawlers, think any Etrian Odyssey game for example. Persona 5 goes for the same thing, as do most Shin Megami Tensei games.

Most modern games, however, are overly lenient with either money or healing. Often times, combat is easy enough to not even drain your resources. That's when endless grinding becomes an option. Once you've destroyed this balance, you need something else to keep attention and that's where I think your observation comes in.

[–] ampersandrew@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Is this a modern/old dichotomy? Playing through Metaphor right now, I agree that they go with the old-school dungeon crawler approach, but Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VII are definitely not modern, and I don't think they'd fall into the same bucket.

[–] De_Narm@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Not entirely, however, I feel as though proper resource management got less common over time. While the ideas are still present in modern games, they tend to be easy enough that most resources can just be horded. Most people don't even use consumables nowadays. Games are seemingly balanced around ignoring entire systems.

[–] Ashtear@lemm.ee 2 points 2 days ago

I think there are too many JRPGs that still use their battle system in support of their narrative for it to be considered anything other than a core system in those games. That's especially the case in lower budget games in the genre.

Larger budget projects are branching more and more into side content/worldbuilding, but I'd argue it's still highly underdeveloped in the genre when compared with western RPGs, in quality if not also in quantity. Persona and Yakuza are exceptions, rather than the rule. Persona is doing something entirely different (and well enough that it's being emulated now) while Yakuza, as you say, carry a lot of that over from prior development into its RPGs from the series' action games.

[–] icecreamtaco@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Very interesting observation, I think you're right here. I don't think they need to be sub systems but it does look like a trend now.