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Team owners: "We're just humble billionaires and we care so much about your state. The team is part of the community... Now subsidize our massively profitable business or we'll move the team."
I'll never understand why fans are die hard loyal to franchises that screw them at every possible opportunity. Insane ticket prices, seat license fees (which are somehow different than tickets?), insane concession prices, ads on everything- it hurts my brain.
I'll never understand why fans are die hard loyal to franchises that screw them at every possible opportunity.
Because for many people it is a core part of their identity, without which they wouldn't have much outside of work and sleep
Seems crazy. I think professional sports would be so much cooler if the community had stake in the team and got something out of winning/profits.
It's just so weird to attach your identity to a team that you are in no way a part of, other than the location.
The Euro Leagues system
Your local team gets good enough that you have a team then there are stakes
NA leagues don’t do this because they are entertainment not competitive products
I'm not a huge football/soccer fan, but I love the concept of promotion/relegation. Around here if you have a losing team you get rewarded with a high draft pick. It's a strategy to be terrible.
I also would love having lower level teams to watch, but that's pretty rare. If you have a pro team in your city, you probably don't have a semi pro team with the exception of baseball.
Maybe that's why so many people enjoy watching college sports. Although I have my own issues with that scene, because of course I do.
What’s the state of community sport in the US ?
In the UK we have the same mindless billions in Soccer, but there is still (just about) a good level of community sport, like semi pro and below, where you can watch for almost nothing then go the bar after the match and drink with the players.
You don’t get the same athleticism and artistry (from overtrained genetic freaks) But you still get brilliant entertainment, drama, fun moments with your tribe. Etc.
Community sports is where it’s at.
Nailed it. This is especially true with football in the UK. People are literally born and brought up with the expectation of supporting a certain team.
“You will not believe this 2000 year old strategy, that still works today!”
That's why history is so interesting. People today are exactly the same as we've always been.
As a non north-american I never understood this franchise system. How could you cheer for a team that will move anytime to a city more profitable? In Europe and latin america, if your city sucks, is becoming poor or so, the team will fall to the second division and will deal with that cause they are from that city, cause they are a club, not a franchise. For me this makes much more sense.
As much a love to bash the yanks, it’s not just them any more .
You could take any of the top 10 brands in European football, move the stadium anywhere in the world, and no one would notice but for a handful Of die hards.
If Man City moved to Dubai tomorrow, would that really surprise you ?
If Real Madrid moved to Florida , Liverpool to Beijing, ? Your left with 10,000 pissed off locals, but that’s nothing when you’re a global brand.
You have a great point, but for me it is still too much conjectures, but looking to theses conjectures I still disagree. Moving to another country would destroy those teams, cause they aren´t just the teams, Liverpool actually is a global brand but it is the Liverpool that plays in the premier league and have their rivalries, leaving UK would mean leaving all these parts of the brand behind. It is also a very different scenario, those teams in US move to other cities in the same country and still compete in the same tournament keeping a lot more of their previous brand.
For me your example would be much closer to MLB, NBA, NFL and MLS if you thought about Liverpool goint to Bristol, for example. In this scenario I can see better your point but I still think that the club would lose a lot of their capital and the brand would suffer with the ridicule of the situation for the average football fan. But it is just another opinion based in my previous opinions.
seat license fees (which are somehow different than tickets?)
What the actual fuck is THAT bullshit??
But the stadium will bring so much economic benefit to the city! Well get at least 4 new fast food restaurants hiring only minimum wage workers, and a small boost in hotel revenue!
Transit won't bring any return on investment. Only poor people use transit and they don't have any money. And if someone who has a car does use transit that's hurting the economy! Think of the poor gas station owners and car dealers!
/S /S /S /S /S
This is actually pretty accurate to how big oil, auto manufacturers and sports owners who are friends could operate.
The Cincinnati streetcar cost almost exactly $150m and it serves like 0.5% of the metro population. It runs a 3.6 mile loop, that's just over a 1.5 mile walk from one end to the other. I can walk it in 20 minutes.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiment of the post. We need to invest in public transit. Where I live there are zero non-car options. But don't pretend you're building comprehensive public transit for $150m.
It runs a 3.6 mile loop, that's just over a 1.5 mile walk from one end to the other. I can walk it in 20 minute
Well fine if you want to brag I guess but most Midwesterners would need defibrillators and a fast food chain or two along the way to make this trek, and it ain't taking 20min.
Okay you're not wrong about most people. I saw a post in a couch to 5k thread recently about getting to running 14 minute miles. I can walk 13 minute miles. But the I-275 loop that circles Cincinnati is almost 90 miles around. The streetcar covering less than two miles of the city is still not helping the common person.
City street cars seem to be a waste of money now but more trains would be nice. They never invest enough in it.
I live in Atlanta. We have a shitty street car and a shitty train system. They don't go to enough places to be useful most of the time. But if they got the same kind of funding our stadiums got it would be crazy good. I could ride the train instead of driving to most places if they just expanded to some more parts of the city.
Okay but their friends don't profit off public transportation so checkmate liberal
I agree with the sentiment of this post, but these numbers are silly.
$150m would barely build a bus fleet transit system, nevermind the maintenance, operating, and personnel costs for the fleet (and completely forget about actual long term transit solutions like rail at that cost figure).
And $1b stadiums are outliers -- our city got into controversy over our stadium which costed around $250m. Not many municipalities are loaded enough to be getting into billion dollar capital expenditure decisions.
you could absolutely build 1 or 2 decent rapid bus lines for that money, as well as pay for a few years of operations. but…. 1 or 2 rapid bus lines, while nice, certainly doesn’t make for a comprehensive system.
City: spends 100k out of $1B of transit budget on installing barriers for separated bike lanes.
My car-dependant city: tHeY sPeNt ToO mUcH oN bIkE lAnEs
My city painted lines in the road, and people still bitch about it 3 years later, the lines are almost gone from fading and chipping, and cycling is still dangerous due to some traffic specifically targeting them for harrasment.
"Oh BTW, we gave the stadium to some wealthy dude, and he'll keep all of the money the stadium makes. Don't worry though, your tax dollars will pay for the upkeep.
People have no idea what things cost. Stadiums are cheap.
150 million dollars in a major city might be enough to open a new Walmart. Forget about a comprehensive transit system.
Raiders and Rams stadiums each cost over a billion and have been built in the last 5ish years. Stadiums should and can be cheap but the NFL owners aren’t doing that. Vegas is also tearing down the Tropicana to build a massive and expensive baseball stadium in its please with a smaller Tropicana on the site as well
It cost £200 million (£327m at current prices) just for 14km of tram lanes in my local city.
It could buy a decent amount of buses (~£200k each, more for green options), but without infrastructure changes and bus lanes, have fun watching them sit in traffic while everyone refuses to use them.
Shit's expensive yo.
Owners pockets only have an in door, no out door.
Your money becomes their money.
What city size can justify a $1 billion stadium and pull off comprehensive public transit for $150M?
What city size can justify a $1 billion stadium
Could have just stopped there. The answer is none regardless of the rest.
Do you live in orbanistan (hungary) here we have 2 big stadiums 200m away from each other, and having 10000 person stadiuma in a village where 1800 people lives...
Oh, someone lives in Québec city lmao!!
I was going to say Alberta, lol
Edit: I know the $1.22 billion is just for a new arena in Calgary, but it's a big part of it for sure
And, they act like stadiums are going to"drive economic" activity instead of creating dead zones in cities.
You know what would guarantee increased economic activity?
People being able to easily get to jobs and shops.
Stadiums drive economic activity into city government officials pockets.
Even then, only in a shortsighted, politically deceptive manner. Taxation driven by sales in a thriving hub with free transit also pads the budget. But, taxes are unpopular and people like sports teams and arena shows and overpriced shitty beverages. They give the bigger dopamine hit.
150M isn't even close to covering a functioning public transit system in any major US city. Expansions of the subway in New York routinely run into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and that's just expansions. Even if you're looking at buses only, if you start with the assumption that each bus runs about $100k, that's a mere 1500 buses. The CTA in Chicago uses over 1800 buses--that only counts the ones currently in operation--so you're still short on building bus stops, bus lanes, any kind of light rail system, and so on. Oh, and lots of the bus lines in Chicago stop running after a certain time; I couldn't take the buses to go to any concerts, since nothing operated in my area between midnight and 5am.
Plus, you have ongoing operating expenses. Once a stadium is built, it's usually operated by someone other than the city.
I'm not saying I'm in favor of stadiums, but whoever costed this needs to consult with a civil engineer to come up with a more realistic figure for comprehensive public transit for major cities.
Try more like $500,000 for a bus.
And light rail is $20m per mile or more (way more in an established downtown).
And I am, in fact, a civil engineer.
In London, Ontario, the city gave the transit commission $350M to spend on a new transit overhaul called Bus Rapid Transit (BRT). It was the best plan possible for our city as our streets are too narrow to accommodate light rail and we sit on swampland at a low altitude above sea level which prevents a subway from being built. All the commission had to do was pour concrete for new bus pads and widen a couple of streets to add in a dedicated bus lane.
They blew half the money on consultations, construction fuck ups, and removal of fuck ups in 2022. They never finished BRT, bought themselves a brand new HQ at a cost of $120M, and now in 2023, they're saying they're $175M overbudget on BRT.
No one in our city is talking about this.
The problem in my town is the homeless people ruining the trails and parks. I feel bad for them but they will fill a park with tents and shit on the pavement
Where would you have them go, exactly?
And now you've found the problem. There are many non profits helping them and making sure they aren't starving but many of these people come from other places and have serious mental health issues.
There is habitat for humanity which is building houses with the idea that having a shelter and a shower can get people off the street. Its a cool project.
Commending your humanity, friend. It's hard to see the problems that people like the homeless can cause in our day to day and not feel reproachful or angry. Even if I know the reason, and can empathize with the situation, it doesn't make the interactions any less jarring or frustrating when they're clearly in need or more assistance than they're getting and that lack is harming them AND the community they need to rely on for survival.
On one hand, where's the affordable housing? On the other hand, where's the access to affordable mental health programs?