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the few moral threads i have remaining regarding the existence of the israeli state are beginning to snap
Yeah, I used to think a two state solution was eventually workable, but now I see this whole project needs to be stopped.
This has been Israel since inception. The early Zionists were always very open about their intentions. Their "Greater Israel" plan has existed for generations. Palestinians did not grab a weapon as their first choice but their last.
The difference is our ability to see everything on social media now.
Yeah, I just didn't really know about it before, I agree that that was always the project.
I remember thinking in 2010 or so that Israel has no incentive to seek a two-seater solution. They would just continue to say that they were trying to work it out while continuing to settle, until the point that there were enough Israelis that it wouldn't matter anymore.
What do you suppose is allowing the remaining threads to hold on?
Not op, but: The citizens aren't all or always a reflection of government actions.
Trauma, real or perceived, can cause irrational behavior and beliefs.
Propaganda and methods of behavior control and modification are powerful. Fear of speaking out in a culture of vengeance.
Bibi et al are pure evil. That's certain. IDF: evil. Some citizens: evil.
Some citizens: not evil
That said, the current state of Israeli governance no longer has any validity in any of its words or actions. It must be boycotted, embargoed, sanctioned, and dismantled.
Its leadership must face the judgment of their god for the abominations committed.
After they are judged at the Hague.
Israelis broke that rapist of prisoners out of jail and paraded him around on TV. They prevented him from facing consequences because they believe Palestinians are that much lesser, that their suffering does not matter, and no too great of crime can be done against them.
When the Zionist forces ramp up violence, Bibi's ratings increased. When they bombed Lebanon, targeting hospitals, Bibi's ratings increased. Their marches in the streets are not to end the genocide, they are to demand the full restoration of their status as ethnic supremacists. To return every hostage, even if that means destroying every hosoital, burning refugee camps.
There are Israelis that have compassion and work against apartheid, but they are an extremely small minority. The vast majority of the country are apartheid ethnic supremacist settler colonists and they are just as racist and crybullying as you would expect. This ideology permeates, they are taught it was children and it is reinforced through school, military service, and mass media.
Watch or read Israeli-targeted Israeli media. They do not put in the show they usually do for the world audience. They are just openly racist.
Such a society can only be addressed through disempowerment. When they lose their power, their ability to oppress per their expectations, when people get their homes back, a substantial portion of settlers will leave the country of their own volition, much like the whites of South Africa, while the others seek to retain as much of apartheid as they can and, if justice orevails, will fail to do so while their children receive a proper education in how genocide is, in fact, wrong.
You can hear what Israelis have to say from their own mouths. It's evil.
Bibi is evil, but he's absolutely a scapegoat for the evil of the Israeli government and even the people, as it is basically never reported in the west how his approval went up after escalating against Lebanon, and he generally is pushed to take more severe (and heinous) action by the bulk of the Israeli people. That's not to say every one of them is a bad person or Bibi is less evil, but every single one who is good is an anti-zionist.
Destroying the state of Israel, contrary to Zionist propaganda, does not mean killing all the Israelis, nor imprisoning them or otherwise punishing them. It means destroying the government apparatus that, from the beginning of its very existence, has been a racial-supremacist settler-colonial entity, and investigating what evidence is turned up in its records and punishing the actual criminals accordingly. Oh, and returning stolen homes where there's anyone still surviving to reclaim them.
Some articles on Haaretz just sound like Israelis just now beginning to understand the possibility that Palestinians are human beings.
I wonder if much of Israel underwent a moral drain (kinda like a brain drain but a lot of those "not evil" people made the good decision to stop being part of an apartheid state), and young people are immediately indoctrinated either by their parents/schools at an early age or by the state (via military service) at 18. I am beginning to see how skewed and ugly the current ideological composition of Israel is.
I'm no expert but like, if the state is dissolved don't you suddenly have ten million Jews you need to relocate and house somewhere? It just seems like a logistical problem of insane proportions that nobody is ready to solve, and to me it's not really an acceptable outcome to the conflict
But also they won't stop committing genocide against their neighbors and stealing their land. So I don't know
The EU should put their money where their mouth is and carve out a portion of their own territories into a Jewish state then (not US territory since that would only result in Indigenous land being further colonized). Instead of them insisting that the Jews need their own homeland on someone else's land.
I think Russia is claiming they saved all the Jews from the Evil Nazis.
They have tons and tons of free space, Israel can move there.
Most of the camps were liberated by the Red Army. I don't see why you feel the need to say "Evil Nazis" unless it is to mock the idea of Nazis being very evil.
The Soviets did actually have a plan to move the Jewish refugees who were refused homes abroad into a designated Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, but the plan fell through for reasons that I don't really understand. Maybe just because the land they chose wasn't good or there was just more momentum behind the project to colonize Palestine (which the USSR supported at a critical juncture before going back to opposing for some reason).
In the modern day, I hate the idea of injecting such a reactionary population of millions into a country that has a more lively left than most (though yes, the left has never controlled the Federation and has its own issues besides) when the Israelis could either carve out a part of Germany for themselves or be put in some of the other reactionary shitholes in Europe like England and Italy, where they probably wouldn't make the politics any worse than they already are.
Dissolving Israel doesn't mean kicking every Jewish person out. There are Jewish people in Palestine already, and the point is to make a multiethnic state, not replace one ethnostate with another. Many Israelis would definitely leave for a number of reasons, very much like how a meaningful part of the white population fled South Africa in the wake of Apartheid being defeated, but there are houses where there are no other claimants and, God forbid, the remaining former Israelis can also just buy or rent homes instead of stealing them. There would be a big population shift, but there is absolutely no need to build a 10-million-person-ark.
Forced integration of 10 million Jews into two Arab countries razed to the ground by Jews definitely feels like trading one crisis for another. There is going to just be more bloodshed except now with a new paragraph added to Wikipedia
The highly racial framing you are using is one that even Hamas rejects. Palestine is an Arab country in the sense that it's mostly Arab, it is not Arab in the sense of being an ethnostate like Israel. Likewise, the point of conflict here is not that the Israelis are Jews, but that they are former colonizers, aside from the second-class citizen Arab (etc.) Israelis. Jews do alright in Palestine right now.
Even if it just stopped there, the fact that there would be some hate crimes as blowback from the genocide committed by Israel is a much smaller and more manageable problem than having a rogue state launching hellfire missiles indiscriminately at cities.
But I think there are other factors to consider, first among them being that people of Palestine have the much more important jobs of a) reconstruction and b) the extensive trials that will be required, along with their associated fact-finding missions. There's a lot of shit to do and most of it is for the direct benefit of Palestinians, plus any spite they have can be satisfied by the just convictions of countless Israeli criminals. It's not like they are some racist savages who won't be satisfied until the last Jew has been bled dry, contrary to their hasbara depiction. Overwhelmingly, what they want is to live in peace, because so many of them have spent their whole lives living under violence.
So nothing about this seems like it would be an equivalent problem to leveling one of the most densely populated cities in the world, plus all the other shit that is going on. It is, in function, just a refusal to allow any blowback Israelis caused to actually hit them, no matter how many Arabs get slaughtered in the meantime.
I do agree with the other commenter that it would be good for some NATO-sphere country or countries to set aside land and migrate out those non-criminal Israelis who want to leave, but that's almost certainly not ever going to happen. I acknowledge that it's possible, but the use of Israelis to these states is as a ranks of a militarist state terrorizing its neighbors. What use would Israelis be to the imperial project in Alberta, Canada?
It should also be noted that the biggest proponent of the idea that decolonization means turning the tables and just moving around the designations of first and second class citizens, is the colonizers themselves, because that's the only reality they know. You see this in discussions regarding decolonization in the US/Canada as well, where white people think that somehow means Indigenous people are going to force them out of their houses and kidnap their children as some kind of revenge for white people doing those exact things to Indigenous peoples. That's not what decolonization is, but colonizers keep insisting it is because they simply can't think of it in any other terms, and/or they know full well that they're lying and are deliberately building up a strawman against decolonization in hopes of preventing it from happening.
anyone who didn't see this coming raise your hands.
ok, now everyone with your hands raised head south and we promise not to bomb you.
Netanyahu does not care that Israel is now known worldwide as the genocidal state.
And why would he? The most powerful empire in the world is unconditionally enabling his genocide and punishes anyone else who doesn't fall in line.
Makes me wonder if the soldiers doing this are like the German soldiers that decided it was easier to go along with what they were told or the ones who got a reputation for enthusiastically enjoying this kind of shit.
I saw an article recently that looked at the rates of suicide in Israeli soldiers. One guy, who featured heavily in the article, had killed himself after being an IDF bulldozer driver. The article tried to dial up sympathy for him, but additional coverage (in response to this article) highlighted that this guy had posted some pretty horrifying stuff on social media — stuff like videos and photos of him in Gaza, being pretty jovial as he drove through bodies and buildings. I wonder whether the PTSD he experienced afterwards was a sort of moral immune system, and that once he was away from the kind of military camaraderie that normalises atrocities, if he began to reflect on his part in this genocide. At least for him, we'll never know.
A Jewish, anti-Zionist friend who lived in Israel for a while said that it was disturbing to see how much the Holocaust was leveraged to make people feel scared and insecure. I imagine many members of the IDF do genuinely believe that most, if not all Palestinians hate all Jews and want them to die. That way, they can enthusiastically participate, believing that they are on the side of justice.
I once punched a Nazi at a gig, and I did enjoy it, because it feels good to be righteous and angry. Enough so that it makes me anxious about how easy it would be to lean into anger if it feels righteous.