this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023
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[–] Blake@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (39 children)

Clearly everyone should just let China do whatever they want to avoid war, if we appease them by expanding their territorial claims and avoiding conflict then surely everything will be fine. The politics of appeasement has historically been very successful.

Edit: Stop replying please, I don’t want to waste any more time arguing with y’all.

[–] CascadeOfLight@hexbear.net 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also "appeasement" is a made up post-hoc explanation for the western Allies' actions before WW2, blaming the supposed naivete or lack of spine of the leaders for simply allowing the Nazis to make expansionist moves uncontested, rather than it being an intentional policy to get out of their way and try to direct them eastwards against the Soviet Union.

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago

Absolute banger of a comment

[–] TheLastHero@hexbear.net 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The 21st century indo-pacific is not a comparable issue to 20th century Central Europe. Also appeasement wasn't even the complete disaster casual observers like to make it out to be (who still won the war after all?) but that's beside the point here. Taiwan is not some defenseless independent country being threatened by the reincarnation of Hitler calling for world domination. It's a part of China that broke away in an ideological civil war that China wants back. Even the US state department acknowledges this fact, yet they still believe it is very important that they protect one part of China from another part of China and extend their civil war which should have ended for good decades ago. This is not an act of peace or charity, this is creating a conflict situation, with Taiwan right in the center of any potential explosion.

See, the US doesn't care about these concerns is because the real reason America is in Taiwan is so they can use it as a strategic base for operations to oppose and weaken the PRC, a "West Berlin of Asia" so to say. And somehow, liberals and social democratic opportunists have deluded themselves into believing that stationing the most powerful naval fleet in history (US 7th Fleet) to permanently do 'freedom of navigation exercises' (armed provocations) in Chinese coastal waters is the "moderate" solution to this conflict. And I suppose we'll just have to keep the navy there forever right? Or until the PRC finally collapses? (I'm still waiting lol)

I say we should cut a deal with the PRC, let them have Loser Island in exchange for mediating other border disputes with their neighbors. A majority of Taiwanese citizens want more integration with China, and they're still their largest trading partner. While immediate annexation wouldn't be popular, a gradual process of integration would be best for the entire region. It would allow the two biggest military powers to step down their aggressive actions against each other, end the period of Taiwanese citizens being used as a geopolitical pawn, and provide a solid diplomatic framework to settle future disputes in the region (as this would be a massive rapprochement in Sino-American relations) This wouldn't even weaken American national security (which is what everyone hates about 'appeasement') since it's, you know, an occupied imperialist outpost on the other side of the world's largest ocean, not even in America's hemisphere.

Of course this option would be totally unacceptable for the American imperialist apparatus, they would never be willing to lose such an important base in the Pacific (just ignore that they would still have Japan, Guam, Philippines, etc). So what's going to happen instead is that the US is eventually going to get distracted and entangled in some other imperialist mess, because they can't recognize their empire is hopelessly overextended, and China will just take Taiwan when they think the balance of power is in their favor. This would be the worse thing to happen: a chaotic breakdown of the region instead of a negotiated reordering. There will be decades of bitterness and calls for mass violence. Maybe it will also escalate and some ships get sunk and the nukes fly and oh well its World War 3. Beware those who call diplomacy 'appeasement' in the post-atomic age, they seek your death.

[–] Blake@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

How can you consider yourself anti-imperialist when you’re talking about unilaterally giving entire countries to other countries?

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[–] TomHardy@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (14 children)

These are the territorial claims of the government on Taiwan, from a state the US and much of the Western world support or at least de facto like to defend in Asia. They never made any remarks regarding Taiwan's claims with 18 other countries. If the US supports peace in the Asia Pacific (besides looking at a map and asking why the US has even a say about Asia in the first place), then surely Mainland China must be supported, as by protecting & legitimizing Taiwan's constitution, you're approving this shit in Asia.

But let me guess, neoliberal countries get a pass from the crackerverse?

[–] Blake@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Holy shit, you’re telling me that both sides in a civil war think they should have full control of the country they’re in a civil war over? Hang on I need to sit fucking down my head is spinning

[–] TomHardy@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, I think you need to read my comment and your's again. You say appeasement politics will lead to no good, so... you protect the ROC's claims instead, which is even appeasing more that just leaving China. I caught your illogical argument, and distilled it to the meaningless content that it was. Now you pretend stupid to run away from that illogical claim. But you can't win against me, who studied at Oxford, Nato boy

[–] Blake@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

you can’t win against me, who studied at Oxford, Nato boy

This is the most unbelievably embarrassing thing I have ever read on Lemmy. Honestly, if you regret writing this, please let me know. I will amend my comment to erase the fact you ever wrote it.

you protect the ROC’s claims

Please cite evidence of my support of Taiwan’s territorial claims. If you believe that opposing CCP imperialism means that one must also support Taiwanese territorial claims then you have made an incorrect assumption - and a converse error on your part does not constitute a failure on mine.

I’m very sorry that I refuse to defend the strawman you so thoughtfully prepared for me. By all means, whack away at him. I would suggest that you take your own advice, by the way, and read my actual comment and respond to the text of what I wrote, not some imagined subtext your Oxford-educated brain conjured to allay your cognitive dissonance. Oh, and one last thing - whatever your parents paid for that education, unfortunately it would appear to have turned out a poor investment.

[–] TomHardy@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Then get prepped, cause I did my postgraduate at MIT as well. There are no smarter guys than those graduating there. I knew you would now claim "where did I said we need support Taiwanese territorial claims mimimi". Did you read the article and what it is about? What is the US and what is China's point of conflict? Tell me, how can you say "we can't appease China blabla..." to do what? Taiwan is the exact part of their sovereign terrorial claims. Opposing them on the fact that Taiwan becomes/remains independant is exactly enabling the territorial claims of the state on that island, ROC.

And now you backpedal, "I'm commenting on the article but in fact I do not support US point of view and argue without the context of any article we comment on!!!1! Its my isolated opinion from those events and blabla" or "Actually I meant we should oppose China but also make demands on Taiwan's contitution and put conditions on their clams blabla...". I know that if you would understand any of this conflict or history you wouldn't actually call under the article of US warmongering, encirclement and violation of the One-China policy regarding China's claim of Taiwan, an act of "CCP imperialism". But know you backtrack and try to slip away like a oily snake. There is no escape from my superior arguing skills, and you're critic of appeasing hypocritical is false even on the level of formal logics.

whatever your parents paid for that education, unfortunately it would appear to have turned out a poor investment.

This is the real strawman in this thread.

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[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The only territorial claims China has tried to enforce recently are to literally uninhabited lands (Aksai Chin and the SCS islands) and Taiwan (which they are still at war with).

How much do you really care about a piece of rock with no people and no animals living on it?

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