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That's irrelevant. Being trans isn't "gaming the system" it's just something you're born being. No one is going to transition for an advantage in a ball game and it's ridiculous to even suggest it.
Right! No one is doing so now, but there's nothing stopping people from doing so if it becomes so normalized. It's a reductio ad absurdum of your argument. You're acting like this is the first time legislation can be passed in favour of a group of people such that it can't be abused by others strictly for personal gain.
Furthermore, just because people's intentions for transitioning now aren't chiefly to obtain an advantage in a ball game doesn't mean that they DON'T actually possess an advantage...
Also you need to provide a justification for why my initial distinction is "irrelevant". The classifications into men's and women's sports are based on sex and not gender.
No one would ever do it and it's ridiculous and transphobic to suggest it. Do you think a cis man would actually choose to live like this for a possibly minor advantage in women's sports? It's a joke.
I'm sure someone might try, but once the realities of gender dysphoria sink in and their boobs start growing they'd realize it isn't worth transitioning to the wrong gender just to be able to dunk in the WNBA or whatever. I don't think you realize how fucking horrible it is for your body to mutate into a (WRONG HORRIBLE NO NO NO) form that you hate. No one would choose to live like that for what might ultimately be a very minor advantage. Stop entertaining that as a legitimate concern.
Whether we should segregate sports by sex instead of other considerations is a separate conversation that other people in this thread want to have, but that's besides the point I'm trying to make. I'm telling you, gender dysphoria isn't something someone would choose.
Gender dysphoria is real. Stop trivializing it.
Google reductio ad absurdum.
Also:
Furthermore, just because people's intentions for transitioning now aren't chiefly to obtain an advantage in a ball game doesn't mean that they DON'T actually possess an advantage...
I'm all for letting trans women participate in male sports if it they've been in the transition period long enough that their physical capabilities don't give them an unfair edge. I also think you've done me a huge disservice by claiming that I'm "trivialising" gender dysphoria when all I've done is use a valid argumentative technique. I only brought in the reductio ad absurdum to show that anybody can claim to be "born" that way regardless of whether or not transitioning is practical.
Your original claim was that trans people are "born" that way and i disagreed. Citing that we classify these things based on sex and not gender. It's not another discussion entirely because it's my rebuttal to your claim.
There's no need to make this about ad hominems or bring your emotions into this. I've never once claimed in this thread that trans folks should lose rights or be barred from participation in society.
You specifically used the term "game the system" which directly implies someone who isn't trans faking their transition for an advantage in women sports. I don't see any other way to interpret this, and this is a transphobic idea because it completely trivializes gender dysphoria as something someone would willingly experiece for what is likely a very minor (or non-existent) advantage.
Although, again, I am not really making an argument that trans women wouldn't have an advantage in women's sports. They might! I'm not necessarily convinced that they definitely would, or that their advantage is greater than other genetic factors, or that sex segregation in sports is even the best way to divide the leagues. That has nothing to do with my problems with what you said.
I'm specifically taking issue with the idea that someone would use being trans as a trick to dominate women's sports. It's an absurd idea.
My claim is that being trans is something you're born as, it's not a trick people use to game the system. Your argument against it seems to be that, actually, anyone could cheat and transition for an advantage in women's sports. This necessarily implies cis men.
I honestly don't see where I'm misunderstanding you. I'm just laying out the logical conclusions of your "valid argumentative technique".
Speaking of valid argumentative technique! It seems reductio ad absurdum isn't a fallacy. It's a legitimate way to show the flaws in an argument, like pointing out people would fall off the edge if the world if it was flat.
P1 - Transgender women who possess an unfair advantage should be allowed to compete on equal grounds with women AFAB
P2 - Anyone can transition
Consequentially - Everyone can transition in order to gain an unfair advantage
I don't know what's so difficult to understand here. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't care about the practicality of the absurd outcome.
That says it's an "argumentative technique" and not a fallacy? I think it's a way to demonstrate the flaws of an argument.
It's also irrelevant because that's not even what I did. That's because:
Not just anyone can transition, a cis person who went through HRT and socially transitioned would give themselves gender dysphoria. Being trans is something inherent to trans individuals, it's not a trick used to game the system.
I think I've made it abundantly clear that I was using the reductio ad absurdum as an argumentative technique throughout this discussion.
Fair enough, I'm willing to give you that people that transition just to gain an edge in sports wouldn't necessarily be considered "trans". At the end of the day my core argument was that it wouldn't be fair to let trans women who potentially possess an edge physically to participate in sports where that physical edge is salient because it could be taken to this absurd end.
C'est fini
No, actually, I thought you were accusing me of taking your absurd argument to its logical conclusion. I didn't realize you were justifying why you are playing rhetorical games to say stupid shit like "cis men are going to transition to cheat in women's sports". It's nonsensical, it won't happen, anyone that tried would quit when their boobs started growing because gender dysphoria is real.
Gender dysphoria is torture. It's not a fun way to game the system and cheat at women's sports. The money and fame don't justify mutilating your body untill you want to die, especially in women's sports where there isn't a lot of money or fame to go around. Suggesting otherwise is basically saying that gender dysphoria isn't a big deal, that people would willingly do that to themselves for a minor advantage. It's inherently transphobic.
This isn't the absurd logical conclusion of letting trans women play sports, this is a transphobic misunderstanding of dysphoria.
Talking to you is self harm.
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