this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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Russian pacifists want Russia to stop invading Ukraine.
Lemmygrad / Hexbear pacifists want Ukraine to appease Russia and give up territory.
They are not the same.
Russian anti-war activists have a correct position.
But an important consideration should be whether one's actions actually contribute to Russia withdrawing sooner, or if they instead help justify further, equally self-interested NATO involvement in the war.
Unless you are Russian, it's most likely the latter.
There are two imperialist blocs involved in the conflict, and it doesn't matter which one of them technically started it.
I'm sorry, but when it involves one imperialist bloc invading a smaller country, then it does matter.
Do you have the same position regarding the Vietnam war, Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan? Or do you only support whichever side is not aligned with the US?
The Vietnam War? You mean the one where a rebel faction backed by Russia rose up against a smaller, recently established pro-Western government, and the US came to the defense of that government, because if they lost the enemy would surely keep expanding more and more across the entire region, and all the peace advocates were dismissed as supporting appeasement? That Vietnam war?
Yes, we take a similar position on that as we do to this, do you?
Vietnam was opposing a puppet government imposed by the US.
The Ukrainians opposed a Russian puppet government in 2013.
Do you support both Vietnam and Ukraine?
I support both the Vietnamese fighting against the South Vietnam puppet government and the Ukranians in the DPR fighting against the current Ukrainian puppet government, yes (though my support for the latter is more critical since they're not communists)
You did not answer my question.
Did you support the Ukrainians rebelling against their government back in 2013. Or do you only support a side if that side happens to oppose the US?
I disagree that the previous government was a puppet government.
My political aims go against the interests of the US, so generally groups that are aligned with my aims oppose and are opposed by the US. I don't believe in judging every conflict as a disinterested third party with no consideration of past events or present conditions. The US has a long history of installing far-right governments, has an atrocious record of human rights, and violates sovereignty left and right, and that is relevant to who I support.
I do believe in giving critical support to just about anyone who's willing to disrupt the unipolar world order in which the US has license to act as a rogue state. I want everyone involved in starting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to face a war crimes tribunal and be shot or hanged, and I support things that bring us closer to that goal. You, on the other hand, want to keep blindly trusting those same people to tell us who our enemies are. The only way to put any check on the US's rampant militarism and aggression is through a multipolar world order.
Of course you do, that's my point.
Tankies will support whichever government aligns with a power that is not the US. Even if that power is a capitalist oligarchy like Russia.
They do, but the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.
Specially when you take into account what Russia has done. They have a long history of erasing East European cultures (i.e. Russification), and genocide. So I do not trust them when it comes to Eastern European affairs, and neither do native people from those countries, most of support for Russia in those areas comes from Russian minorities (I wonder how they got there).
Great argument.
Of course they're not, and I don't consider them as such. They are, however, the enemy of my enemy. Ideally, once the US is dealt with, Putin can get the wall next.
The US has a much worse historical record with genociding native people, so maybe Russia should support some landback movements in the US. Afaik they never did anything to the Native Americans.
I'm not sure what genocide you're referring to in any case. But I'm sure you can dig up some skeletons in the closets of any two historical neighbors if you go far enough back. What's funny about your argument is that you seem to be suggesting that people thousands of miles away are better suited to govern a region, since they likely don't have a similar record.
Are we just going to ignore the part where the USSR expanded Ukraine's borders to include the disputed regions?
Have fun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification
Famines are not genocides lol. Though I suppose you could make the case that the embargo on the USSR caused a lot of excess deaths. Famines were extremely common before the USSR took power because it was a pre-industrial society, the USSR ended that. Also, the USSR is a completely different government from the Russian Federation.
How do you feel about the Irish Famine?
The Irish Famine was a genocide, because it was intentional. I should've clarified I mean that famines can be genocides, but are not inherently genocidal.
I'll note that your own source says in the introduction:
Likewise, the article on the Kazakh famine:
And
The last one I didn't see any mention of genocide though it might be buried deeper in the article, it's pretty long.
Here's a quote from the Irish Famine (same source: wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Genocide_question
So you have two options:
You either accept both as a genocide
Or you basically pick-and-choose based on whichever country was responsible for the genocide.
My guess is that you'll take the second option.
Or I could... not base my views on history entirely off of Wikipedia articles?
So... first you believe Wikipedia, now you don't, based on whichever articles suit your views?
I don't think you understand how this works. You cited Wikipedia asking me to accept it as a source. That means that you accept it as a source, and I may or may not accept it as a source. Given that Wikipedia says that your claims of genocide are disputed, you have to accept that. I don't have to accept Wikipedia as authoritative, because I never claimed it was, I'm just saying that if you accept it, then you have to accept that all your claims are disputed. That's just how citing sources works.
You debatebroed the debate bro with actual fact and logics, holy hell
(notice how they haven't responded after lol)
Those were violent right-wing militias, not peaceful protestors. Did you support the people rebelling against the US government on January 6th? Because that's a genuinely analogous position to supporting the Maidan coup.
I literally said that
Are you aware that it's possible to want neither NATO tanks nor Russian tanks in Ukraine?
You can even make sure you are consistent with both things in action 100% of the time - it's a neat little trick called "opposing the position of your own government".
I am.
But do you believe Ukraine is able to maintain their territory protected from Russia without NATO's weapon supply?
No, just as it would be unable to resist NATO in being turned into a far-right paramilitary-led banana republic if Russia were to suddenly withdraw without any decrease in NATO involvement.
But the beauty of the neat little trick above is that if the working classes of both sides correctly oppose their respective ruling classes' interests, we can end up with a scenario where both sides lose - objectively the best outcome for the Ukrainian people, as well as everyone else.
The Russian anti-war activists are clearly holding up their end of the bargain. Why are you not holding up yours?
Exactly this.
Revolutionary defeatism is the name of the word. Those who should be concerned with Russian imperialism must be russian working class people.
We in the west have to fight against our own imperalists. It's very simple and in the end very logical.
Ah! To be young and naive enough to believe that the anti-war activists in Russia have any leverage. They will all end up in Siberia or jumping out of a window.
Any regime change in Russia will come from the oligarchs, and the Russian working class will still be in a bad position (if not worse).
They did quite well in WW1.
Speaking of that, was the Entente was completely justified in sending millions to die in the war? After all, previously you said:
Not even one, but two smaller countries! Think of little Belgium and Serbia!
Someone has read Lenin hihi
(Lenin exactly refers to the Belgium question in WW1 in "Socialism and the War")
funny how shitlibs like you will gladly say stuff like this while in the very same breath talking about how russians are all evil orcs for genociding the smol bean ukranians and they need to be wiped out
also the "oh i am so worldly and wise" liberal condescension act is beyond tired. if you're so old and venerable then just fucking die already, ghoul.
😘
as always, liberals care about nothing but being smug
He most likely doesn't believe Ukraine is able to maintain their territory protected from Russia with NATO's weapon supply, and for good reason, given how clearly this is demonstrated by the utter failure of the vaunted counter-offensive. The only thing your position is really advocating is the useless deaths of vast numbers of Ukrainians (and Russians, for that matter).
They never admit it, but the fact that Russian deaths will continue is one of if not the main reason these NATO dronies are fine with sacrificing the lives of all those Ukrainians they pretend to care about. Spoiler warning: they don't actually care about Ukrainians. But they'll still couch it in terms as if they're "supporting Ukraine." Such "Ukraine supporters" are either completely, pathetically fooled by obvious NATO propaganda or they are just bloodthirsty bigots (or both, which is most often the case).
The mere fact that they are in the act of a counter offensive after Russia tried to blitz then shows that it's not even close to what you're describing.
Ukraine is holding their current territory pretty easily and gaining the upper hand very clearly.
The mere fact that you believe this shows how steeped in western propaganda you are
At no point was Russia's strategy a blitz, this is a lie meant to equate Russia with nazi Germany and Pitin With Hitler even though it's still
celebrating Bandara as a national hero
No Russia's gameplan from the start has been what it has been for almost 100 years, Soviet tactics not that that coked up nazi blitzkreig bullshit
The attack on Kiev was likely a feint
The cope levels are off the charts
The second you call Russia's actions imperialist you just broadcast that you're someone who just uses words for their impact and not their meaning and you should be completely disregarded in any conversation on the topic
TIL invading other countries and annexing their territories does not qualify as imperialism.
It can involve that. But you're using imperialism to "accuse them of what you're doing before they can" by flattening all history and context away.
Russia is defending itself from encirclement. Acting like you're against imperialism rings hollow when you only apply it to an act of resistance to your empire expanding.
Finally one of you libs has learned this
Adding "jailing pacifists for speaking out" to the things dronies openly support, along with forcing others to fight when they're not willing to, poisoning civilians with generations of birth defects, and giving cluster bombs to Nazis.
The moral high ground, ladies and gents
No, we want Ukraine to stop trying to ethnically cleanse the Donbas and give the people there self determination. And we want the Ukrainian government to stop forcibly conscripting people to go die needlessly on the front in a clearly losing war. We want NATO to stop enabling all of that (it literally wouldn't be happening if they weren't demanding that it continue). That's what it is to be a peace activist. And I'm fairly sure I can speak for all of us, we are not pacifists, lol. But we are advocates for peace and the end to the horrible and needless loss of life.
Nice try to completely twist reality, and completely misrepresent us, as you war mongering dronies always do.
Edit: We actually give a shit about all the Ukrainian people being thrown into a fucking meat grinder. We care about their lives. The people who just say "more weapons to Ukraine!" do not give a shit about the lives of the people there. They're happy to just let the war keep dragging on until the last capable Ukrainian is dead. An example of how WE feel about the tragedy of the situation: https://hexbear.net/post/503747 (hexbear link to a lemmygrad news post)