this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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How would you continually add meaningful content season after season when these games are heavily story driven? You'd run into the same problem Destiny is having but faster as you try to keep a story running infinitely.
I love Dark Souls. I love the lore of Dark Souls. But to say they are heavily story driven is false. They're literally built around the game, and then the story is shaped around the gameplay. They've said this themselves many times. In that sense, it wouldn't be that difficult to continuously add fun game content and then write some small story shit to make it fit in the existing lore.
Not that I necessarily want this. I'm just saying From, at least, could pull it off considering they already operate in a way that doesn't impact it like actual story-driven titles.
Oh look! a new giant creature to do somersaults around
Thing is, thats not what attracts us. Its the way the world is alive. Lords finally did it too. The world is built to where it tells a story.
The Fire Giant is imprisoned by the kiln, left to be the last lone guard.
We arrive at the Temple of the Deep, only to hear i passing from an NPC that Aldritch isn't there, when we arrive where he should be he is not there.
The weird singing beasts around Liurnia can have their song translated, and they sing of being persecuted by the "Golden Ones".
These things are crafted with care, knowledge, and purpose. All of this is antithema to the quick bursting format of GaaS, where content is live for all of 3 months before becoming dead. It does not serve the art form, and you'll be left with hollow shell of a game as devs don't have time to breath life into each boss. You'll also end up getting even more reskins and people already complain about that.
That’s what attracts you, I have never heard anyone compliment the story.
And if it was that then they wouldn’t be “Souls like” because you can have a 2d rpg with “deep lore”
Mans has gone hollow, doesn't think the atmosphere and lore are a major draw of FromSoft Souls games. So much so that nesrly every other Soulslike has tried to have a mind blowing story. Look at the genre dude, its painted in Miyazaki's favorite colors.
Edit: and soulslikes really refers to two things:
That seems to be what the industry has decided on when they tag a game "soulslike". But they're missing the most vital pieces. Thats why "2D rpgs with deep lore" are role playing games and not soulslikes.
I don’t think anyone would call Outward a Souls-like but apparently it is based on your definition
Also you can make a 2D RPG with currency experience and hardcore death, people won’t call it souls-like unless you’re rolling around a boss
Is RuneScape souls-like if you’re a hardcore? What about playing fallout as a hardcore?
Steam disagrees with you.
You can, but specifically, soulslikes have currency experience, you drop it, and there are checkpoints that refresh the area. Its a specific gameplay loop and mechanical feel that makes it a soulslike. Yes, they are technically RPGs in the same way an IPA is also a beer. Idk what you're pulling at. I can frame Fallout as a survival horror. These bins we put games into are slightly arbitrary, but it means they contain systems that are alike and provide much of the same feel or user experience. Fallout does not provide the same user experience as dark souls. If you want to discuss in good faith I'm all for it. But you seemingly want a battle of wits, and have arrived unarmed.
Steam also thinks Valhiem and Grounded are Souls-like then, I think you can find a better argument
Read the rest of my comment.
I thought I would give you a chance
But I did see you argue it’s not about story and not about losing progress when you die. that it is something that could be a live service
I just didn’t think it helped your argument of the opposite
I was arguing for the opposite. A GaaS soulslike would be filled with garbage content and uninteresting bosses due to the development environment created by the unending stream of new "content". You can do it, but its not going to taste good.
This isn’t the opposite
Those are all things independent of story and can be done in GaaS
That exists under all GaaS, it doesn’t change the genre. A game doesn’t have to be good to be a Souls-like
Darks Souls x Genshin is still a Souls-like so how do you figure it’s not?
Then make it dude. Make that big pile of shit. Stress your devs out so they can't place all the tiny details in the environment that connect the boss to the area. Shit out new areas and bosses so fast they have no lore. Watch, as your game sells none because soulslike players aren't there just for the mechanics. Which, speaking of mechanics, they will be garbage too. Do it. I won't stop you.
What is your point here? Are you saying if I make a bad game then I’ll realize that only good games exist in a genre? Or are you upset that you realized genre is independent of quality?
What is your point? I'm telling you a GaaS Soulslike will fail. You won't make any money with this idea because it lacks the things that make us keep coming back to FromSoft year after year. This isn't an FPS where razor thin attention spans must be constantly stimulated. Soulslike fans will scoff at constant microtransactions and skins and your stupid in game store. Wanna know how I know this? Because there is a soulslike GaaS! Wanna guess the fucken name? Since its such a good idea you should have heard of it, right? I will honestly wait for your reply to tell you the name.
Can you name a genre that you think GaaS is a good model for?
They just seem to make a ton
I can’t even name every non-GaaS souls like
The name of the game is Let It Die, btw.
Soulslikes are very popular. We watched the genre explode ourselves.
I don't like GaaS, you probably know that by now. But I don't see anything wrong with it giving free access to players. There are plenty of genres that are geat. Racing games, Shooters, sports games could probably do it easy.
But the soulslike genre in particular, the true legends of it, are not the GaaS games. Thats why FromSoft is still the biggest dog in soulslike, they know what the genre fans want. I guess Nioh 2 could be considered GaaS with its dailies and all. But I am more specifically referring to the cancerous revolving door of content type of GaaS. That would not serve a soulslike too well imo.
Learning enemies is the core gameplay loop of a souls like.
Content churn is antithetical to everything the genre stands for.
Wouldn’t a stream of new enemies lean more into that core gameplay loop because you’re constantly learning rather than only when you first played?
Absolutely not.
Games as a service has never once resulted in high quality, well designed and polished content. The incentives are too broken. It is not capable of doing so. The model inherently removes the time required to do the bare minimum.
If every frame isn't carefully considered, it is not a souls like. The entire definition of the genre is built around deliberately approaching enemies that are extremely polished mechanically. There are some cases where the windows to act are small, but if you're frame perfect, you will always win. Games as a service effectively guarantees that there isn't time to ensure that consistent behavior, making it something entirely different.
People seem to like them
Insert any MMO
LoL/DOTA
Apex Legends
Fortnite
Your definition of “game has to be good to be in this genre” doesn’t hold water
The defining trait of the genre is polished, deliberate combat.
Without that it's just a generic ARPG.
Yes ARPG is how the industry refers to Soulslike
They very clearly are ARPGs. Not all ARPGs are Diablo clones with isometric graphics and big showy splash damage.
What distinguishes souls-likes from other ARPGs with similar gear and stat mechanics is the fact that your skill level is a core element of progression. Carefully designed enemies define a souls like. Calling a game without them a souls like is like calling a game without realistic physics a racing sim. It doesn't matter what the developer's intent is. If your physics are arcade-y, you're not a racing sim. You're just a racing game.
You don’t sound like you are coming from a developer background
If I pitch a game as an ARPG people are going to assume a soulslike - simple combat where you wait for an attack then parry/dodge and hit back then repeat until the fight is over
All that matters is the developer’s intent
In your example it is still a racing sim, just a bad one
I am, and you're wrong.
Developers can say anything they want. Genre is defined exclusively by players and how they experience the end result. Players label games.
If a developer makes Doom and calls it a JRPG, they're wrong regardless of what their design goals were.
It’s just a bad jrpg
Developers are the ones marketing it
Marketing has literally zero impact on what genre a game is.
Literally nothing but the gameplay can ever, under any circumstance, contribute to the discussion of what genre a game is.
You’ve never read the description on steam or seen an ad for a game that tells you what kind of game it is?
Of course I have. They just don't have any bearing in any context on what actual genre it is.
Well good luck with your future pitches when you open up by saying the public is going to decide your genre
"I get to decide what you like about the things you enjoy, not you!"
Yes that’s what I said he was saying
Unfortunately for him, what he likes about a game doesn’t define a genre
Are you stupid or dumb?
Sorry to be the one to tell you that genres aren’t just things about a game that you like but you really should have known
I didnt say anything about genres, i called you stupid
That’s the discussion you joined, you chose the side of “only good games exist in this genre”
La di da look who's light load with the ninja flip ring