cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15795315
this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
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Except the pro-Russians won't say they're pro-Russians.
A lot of Russian propaganda is just sowing FUD.
Here's a tangentially related comic, as I just read the latter bit of your comment in that tone, (not saying you're guilty of the same things.)
Basically, because being directly pro-Russia is so see-through, a lot of bad actors merely sow FUD. For one check Davel@lemmy.ml if you want an example. A very polite person who lists links and sources (firehose of falsehood is also a soviet strategy btw).
Dude pretends to be American, talks American politics, but always in line with Russian propaganda, while saying things like "reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias" and absolutely refusing to address whether he is pro-Russian or not, despite very clearly having talking points which show he is strongly pro-Russian.
So either he's an American who fucking loves Soviet culture and larps being Russian, is actively against Ukraine and believes Russia was eight to invade it, so the least patriotic American to ever exist.
OR... (and I believe this to be a tad more likely) he's actually a lying Russian.
But Russians aren't known for disinformation and lies, right? Right....?
Yes, of course you are right. But for those less experienced on discourse, there is the principle of charity. It is important to give the benefit of the doubt that the interlocutor is acting in good faith. But when you exhaust all the good-faith and sensible arguments, and that person resorts to either providing irrational points or acting unreasonably and/or disingenuously, then it is completely safe to assume that the person is actually a bad-faith actor. It's on that person, not on you.
But you should not readily accuse someone a troll unless you could calmly point out why the person is such and such. Trolls exactly want you to do that.
Haven't i seen you cast these types of accusations before...?
Pure AD HOM. Instead of addressing a single part of my argument, you're instantly pointing a finger at my person, but you're so easy that I don't mind engaging.
"Accusations" like quoting his own comments?
He claims to be American. He says "reality has a well known Russian propaganda bias." He won't answer the question "are you pro-Russian".
Those aren't opinions. Those are facts you can verify yourself.
Fervently and actively trying to say Russian propaganda doesn't exist, definitely not on Lemmy, while refusing to answer whether he's pro-Russian or not. Just what kind of American would you have to be to support Russia and be against Ukraine while actively promoting Russian propaganda? Please, do reason that out for me. Thanks.
I'm not debating you bud, relax.
Pretty much my entire experience with your account is dealing with you accusing me of being a russian operative, even linking me into threads across instances in threads I had no involvement in.
I'm just pointing out the pattern here, though I'm grateful you've moved on to another target now.
edit because @Desus@lemmy.world got himself banned on my instance:
I've repeatedly stated that I'm not russian nor pro-russian - but that's the point. There is no way of addressing this accusation thoroughly enough to satisfy the accuser, which is why nearly every community/instance has a rule against it. Nevermind the hopelessness of trying to categorize/typify every anonymous user along some nationalist line of personal significance.
Confusing analysis for justification is a common enough mistake, but it's an even more common bad-faith way of dismissing materialist analysis entirely. Following various users around to make those accusations is simply a way to force disengagement onto others and potentially solidify reactionary impulses against communism/socialism more broadly.
Oh yes, "another target".
You felt threatened, because I asked you if you were pro-Russian. Took you a while to respond, btw. And did you even give a yes or no answer? I fail to recall you saying you're not pro-Russian. And I've never accused you of being a "Russian operative", lol. Spreading Russian propaganda doesn't even require that you are a Russian. But Davel is claiming to be American, while being intensely pro-Russian and due to the interactions someone dug in the modlog last time, we also know there's an actual organised effort with them. I still haven't said that organised effort is actually some paid "operatives".
You read too much into things. Improve your reading comprehension and maybe you won't feel so easily threatened by simple questions like "are you pro-Russian" when you use a username like "archomrade" and constantly post things consistent with Russian propaganda. Perhaps you just don't realise it?
Thanks for your efforts fighting disinformation. Seriously.
Why thank you. I appreciate that. Honestly, more than you'd guess.
They edited their post about four hours after you wrote yours, I suspect to try and discredit your points, because in their post they claim to have repeatedly told you they they’re neither Russian nor pro-Russia, but my skeptical antennae are twitching.
Also, their justification for editing their post is that you're banned on their instance, which I don't buy as a reason to edit rather than reply. You're not banned on world and neither are they.
Oh yeah I remember that guy. He says he answered the question, but he never did. I thought there was something I wasn't really recalling. But yeah. Then I kept asking "if you already answered it, why can't you answer again, it's a simple yes or no question", but he just refuses to answer.
Now this might be me imagining things, but these accounts lie about literally anything, but they can't say "no, I'm not pro-Russian", because they know how insane Russia is and no matter how unimportant you are, if you actually say you are against the government, even as a clear joke, you might be in danger of falling out of a window.
No yeah they just quit replying once they realise they're going on a bit too long while absolutely refusing to answer such a simple question. It's not even "are you Russian". It's whether they support the current Russian policies. Anyone who can't say they're against Russia literally breaking international law can go fuck themselves. Hear that, @archomrade@midwest.social ?
Chill out there is nothing to get upset about.
Come to think of it, how do I know you aren't Russian? In truth, how do any of us know we aren't Russian?
If they absolutely refuse to answer "are you pro-Russian", while actively spreading Russian propaganda, that might be a tip as to what they support.
I'm against Russia. I've been militarily trained to protect my country from Russia, and I'm willing to do it should the fuckers open up a second front here. However seeing how they're having to pour orcs into the meatgrinder at such a rate that their equipment is getting older and older, we'd end up facing enemies with WWII gear while we're outfitted with the latest gear.
Plus, we didn't let them through the last time either.
Haven't worn this in a while, prolly would have to shave down to a buzzcut for it to fit. But I'm not gonna paste an image of my military pass. Not because I'm afraid I'll dox myself or anything, but because it was in my storage and a drunken bum fell asleep in the next storage over while smoking cigarettes and burned down the whole storage room with everyone's storage spaces. Thanks for reminding me though, I need a new one.
Jokes aside, it's not about whether someone is Russian or not. It's about whether someone is pro current Russian policies. I mean I'd argue that actual Russian patriots would fight Putin in any reasonable way. And this probably excludes open armed rebellion, but like, just generally, oppose him. People don't dare to though, as they tend to fall out of windows. I'm not opposed to Russia. I'm opposed to what Russia currently is.
Sounds like you have some justification. Makes sense if you are defending your home.
Thank you for understanding.
@Dasus@lemmy.world
I literally cannot see anything you've posted after you were banned - an instance ban prevents any of your activity from federating. It isn't that I 'stop responding', that possibility has simply been taken away from me because Dasus can't resist russia-jacketing anyone who disagrees with them. I can only see your comments if I visit the post from any other instance url. Call it unhealthy curiosity, I figured you'd be shadowboxing in my absence.
I do not support Russia and Putin is a piece of shit - feel free to send a screenshot to the kremlin if it makes you feel better. The US isn't getting involved out of benevolence, though, and Ukraine would be fucked by IMF and US aid conditions for the next century even if they were successful in repelling the russian invasion. But my material analysis about that conflict isn't even at issue here, instead it's your insistence that any analysis that involves Russia at all be sufficiently critical, else the speaker be condemned as a pro-russian stooge. It doesn't mean I think that russian capitalism is preferable, it's just an acknowledgement that it's western capitalism that has historically -and is currently- obstructing the development of working-class solidarity across the globe, and exchanging Ukrainian (and russian) lives for its expansion is a shit deal to put it mildly.
No war but class war.
Well I'm sorry I made you write all that, but I do really appreciate you writing "Putin is a piece of shit", no matter how childish or crazy I may seem to you.
Also, I don't remember whether in the earlier chat we had some day you actually said that as well. You very well may have, I remember someone saying that at some point, but my short term memory fucking sucks nowadays. But Davel definitely has never answered me.
I don't see how you could say that any capitalism is favourable to another brand of capitalism. Well, except for perhaps saying that Western capitalism is definitely favourable to capitalism with Asian values, which is essentially capitalism deprived of individual freedom and monopolised by the state, ie authoritarian capitalism taking advantage of Western markets. Watch the video, Slavoj Zizek really has a bette handle on economical philosophy than I do.
There is a lot of war beside class war. Mainly, people doing actual war in places with war. Like Ukraine. Now you could never imagine that a European country (yes Russia is technically one too but let's ignore that for a while) would actually manage to organise an invasion of another European country with soldiers who don't even know they're going to invade another country. "Special Military Operation". Imagine, idk, Germany pulling that on France? Sure, 100 years ago. But today? You just wouldn't be able to do that. 100 years ago the populace was still less educated and easier to manipulate. Much like much of Russia's population and pretty much all of North Korea's. If those were educated westerners, they'd have never bought into the propaganda of their respective nations and they couldn't have organised such military efforts.
Is there shitty western propaganda? Yes. Do western countries have a lot of fault and some even actively warmonger? Yes. But is our active worry Western countries? No. (Well, aside from the US because of Trump.) Is our main worry really Russia at the moment? I think so, yeah.
I don't view one type of capitalism as more favorable than another, but I do recognize the particular dominance and imperialistic qualities of western capitalism. In fact, I see the the current global conflicts in a similar lens to Zizek when he says:
The legitimacy of western democratic capitalism is (rightfully) losing credibility, and I even think it's currently collapsing. I don't share Zizek's skepticism of.... "Chinese-Singaporean capitalism with Asian values". He has had some questionable takes on racial/national identities in the past - it's been a while since I trusted his geopolitical cultural analysis. At the very least I think the 'Socialism/Capitalism with Chinese characteristics' has yet to play itself out, whereas there's about a dozen examples of western imperialist intervention ending in absolute squalor for the working class wherever they've been active.
The point is that from a purely ML perspective, there's nothing to be gained by dragging that conflict out. The working class will be in no better material conditions under either outcome, even if we freely acknowledge their occupation and annexation is both immoral and illegal. So long as western democratic capitalism retains its global significance, there can't be socialism without a vanguard party to defend against western capitalistic subversion, at least not one that lasts.
"No war but class war" isn't a statement about the existence of war other than class war lol.
I don't disagree with this. And it's actually nice to get into nuance with someone. The point is that I have a genuine reason to worry about Russia and Russian propaganda — basically everyone has but if they make more of move on Europe, Imma be 30km from the frontlines, and with the current drone technology, I don't like my chances in what I'm doing, which is not something I'm gonna reveal here just in case there actually is a war. (My war time posting, that is.)
Sure, yeah, but you do realise what you sound like when you make statements like that? I'll gladly discuss how fucked up Western politics are when I know I'm not talking to someone straight up worshipping Russia.
For one, I've already explained how I will defend Finland and Europe if it comes down to it, but how people just overhype Finland. "Happiest country in the world"? What fucking garbage. One of the most miserable countries in the world, when it comes to general enjoyment of life. Perhaps one of the safest countries in the world, sure, where you'll usually have your basic needs met and won't have to resort to violence or crime, but... "happiest"? Not even fucking close.
It's not about racial or etchnic takes when Zizek talks about 'capitalism with Asian values'. Essentially he's remarking that a lot of Asian countries are pretty authoritarian, but know that they need to rely on making bank, which is why they successffully employ capitalism, but impose some authoritarian features on the people owning the companies doing the trade. Not exactly monopolising trade, which would mean no capitalism, but basically... monopolising the people doing capitalism... so.... it's not gonna "play itself out". How would China starve itself of people and business, while being so resource rich? Even with super heavy regulation and authoritarianism, they could go all the way down to NK level and still have.. a population. So you know.. you won't be seeing "the end of" anything like that...
Yes but you can also see how quotes can be interpreted in several ways, yes? And the importance of actual war goes above class war, no matter how I'd like to kick up a revolution and start building barricades.
It's hectic. We can't use hectic. I want to rage and break things and yell at morons. But unfortunately that's just never worked and annoying as it is, we have to compromise with morons.
I'm sorry you're in that situation, genuinely. I don't want to be one of those guys that confidently speculates about the future of geopolitical conflict, but Russia benefits a lot more from reactionary isolationists getting voted in throughout the western world and weakening resolve for joint sanction than they do with open conflict with Europe. They wouldn't be able to march into Finland or Poland without NATO taking action, and they certainly do not want to get into open conflict with NATO - that's half the reason they're in Ukraine to begin with.
And i'd gladly discuss it when I know i'm talking to someone who understands that it isn't just western 'politics', it is a matter of the internal contradictions within democratic capitalism itself. It's not a matter of western nations 'deciding' not to be jackasses, they need to materially separate themselves from the needs of capital itself, and we'll sooner sink to fascism than achieve that spontaneously.
Err, yea.... That is basically the only reason they've been as successful as a communist nation to begin with. I understand people's apprehension to include China as a communist or socialist nation state given the idealistic non-violent vision that's romanticized in the west, but the way in which they've enacted their "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is still consistent with a marxist vision of a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. I guess we'll see if/how that system would be implemented in a hypothetical communist/socialist western world, but so far their system has been significantly less violent than even the most charitable characterizations of western democratic capitalism. That's why I don't share Zizek's fear of Chinese authoritarianism taking over in the west - not just because I think the west has greatly exaggerated it to great effect, but also they've been downright benevolent with their partner states in comparison to western democratic capitalist states. I think it's naive to think a western implementation would be the same (but holy shit is that an insane hypothetical given where we currently are)
Funnily enough, that is the opposite of what that phrase means - but I can see we're about to reach the limit on what we agree on so I'll leave it at that.