this post was submitted on 27 Apr 2024
275 points (96.3% liked)
Technology
59666 readers
3401 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This is blatantly wrong. First of all, High and Late Middle Ages is when "self-expression and self-determination" really became a thing. Second, oldest democracies formed before those ended by any criterion. Third, a typical modern centralist democracy making citizens equal is hostile to self-expression and self-determination, for the same reason any centralist state is. Fourth, medieval societies became a relic of the past because they couldn't scale as easily as modern ones in terms of state bureaucracy, and thus manpower and firepower.
I suggest you read up on that too, because what they called honor and chivalry were pretty specific things, and not "everything good, kind, holy and manly merged".
Now, what this guy is talking about would be a normal political or religious movement in late Antiquity.
There were medieval scholars in early ("Dark") middle ages who wrote about self-determination in the context of a greater community as part of the development of Christian intellectualism. I would read this part here, but the whole article is quite interesting (https://sites.nd.edu/manuscript-studies/2019/02/08/moral-self-determination-and-the-byzantine-christian-tradition/):
The idea being that one should self-determine, but also then be humble enough to know one's limitations and understand how to harmonize your will with that of the community. The preceding paragraph really brings this idea home:
I am not a proponent of using religious influence to guide one's morality or decision making, but I am just using the above paragraphs to discuss your first point.
You're right that the history of democracy and democratic societies predates Medieval history, but historical examples of Western governing systems in which middle classes could participate are more well-known in the middle ages
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_parliamentarism#Early_parliaments_in_the_Middle_Ages
Essentially, people sought a centralization of power so they'd have an easier time dealing with the governing bodies--"one king and his court" vs. many nobles. Here's a nice summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_system
By definition, there is no self-determination under the rule of a cult leader or authoritarian as you're subject to define yourself by their will. The democratic tradition, in its various flavors, tends to lend some leeway in enabling anyone to exert their opinion and shape the way the community thinks. In fact, this tech dude wouldn't be able to spout off his nonsense without a democracy of some sort, which is why we're unfortunately exposed to his gibberish and now having this discussion.
Because the rise of parliamentarism (a type of democracy) helped form more efficient governing bodies.
I know :) The point I was making, however, is that people seek some greater purpose or meaning to align their will with that of others.
Oh, thank you. My lazy ass tends to sometimes express arrogant hostility towards people for no good reason at all.
Actually, all I know is some medieval literature read for fun.
But frankly what you say doesn't contradict what I say, even intersects with that. It's just, eh, not as simplistic as my comment.
Frankly from what little I know it seems the other way around - kings succeeded in becoming sufficiently powerful to control their nobles, and then nobles and, yes, the people in general would want some well-defined mechanism of asserting their interests to the monarch without actual rebellion. The nice summary reinforces that too.
As compared to, say, Middle Eastern political traditions (as in "lynched for wrong words"), yes.
I meant that some kind of Late Medieval society would be more diverse due to more individual traditional relations between various entities\estates\whatever. Though inside every such entity one, eh, wouldn't have lots of freedom of speech. But again, these were diverse in that too.
And that in centralist (this is important) democracies the "same rules for everyone" fallacy tends to exist, which misses that an abstractly defined rule still may give some groups advantage over others. One can see that in the way religious tolerance, secularism, gun rights etc are points of contention.
Well, my direction of thought was that due to feudal relations being more personal and decentralized, honor as in personal and family reputation was very important, and there were a few criteria less abstract than modern people may imagine affecting those.
The greater purpose was the divine right of the king to rule his land.