Trying to brand Putin's national conservative kleptocratic regime as somehow anti-empirialistic is just bizarre .. I want to see an end to the capitalist hegemony as much as the next man, but comrade: Putin isn't it.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Russia doesn't have the financial capital necessary to imperialize, nor open markets in the global south that haven't been imperialized by the west already. The Russian Federation would certainly want to imperialize, it has every reason to want to economically if the opportunity arose, but it simply can't. If you're using "imperialism" as a catch-all term for intervention in other countries, then you and jackeroni are fundamentally talking about different things.

[–] terrific@lemmy.ml -1 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

Sorry I didn't mean for this conversation to become a semantic debate.

My original point was merely that the original source is clearly highly biased towards Russia. Mr/ms jackeroni then implied that I was brainwashed by big media, and I was then trying to make the point that just because someone doesn't like Russian propaganda, that doesn't necessarily make them an imperialist drone.

Mr/Ms Cowbee then imply that I am calling Russia imperialist, which I wasn't. I just said they aren't anti-imperialist, which they clearly aren't. Just because they are in opposition to the current primary empire, simply doesn't make them anti-imperialist.

I feel like criticising a news outlet for being biased towards Russia made me the target of two straw man arguments in a very short period of time. Is that normal for this sub?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

Working against imperialism for selfish, pragmatic reasons, is still anti-imperialist. There isn't an ideological basis for it, sure, but the actions fundamentally undermine global imperialism as the primary obstacle towards global socialism.

As for jackeroni posting pro-Russian sources, they've stated that they intend on making the information field more even than purely using western sources. Exposure to non-western points of view is helpful analysis.

As a side note, there's no need to say "Mr/Ms." You can just say "they," use the usernames, or use the listed pronouns if people have them.

[–] terrific@lemmy.ml -1 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Working against imperialism for selfish, pragmatic reasons, is still anti-imperialist. There isn't an ideological basis for it, sure, but the actions fundamentally undermine global imperialism as the primary obstacle towards global socialism.

I don't see how Russia undermines global imperialism, sorry. Putin sometimes tries to frame his regime that way, but that narrative crumbles with the slightest critical analysis. The Ukrainian war feeds the military industrial complex globally, creates new oppressive narratives in the West, and overall strengthens the global elites. How is that anti-imperialist?

As for jackeroni posting pro-Russian sources, they've stated that they intend on making the information field more even than purely using western sources. Exposure to non-western points of view is helpful analysis.

I completely agree. It just seems from the context that they might have a different agenda. What do you make of their strong-arm emoji in their description of the link?

Thanks for the style tip 😊

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

The Russo-Ukrainian War has generally not worked out in the west's favor, and the resources tied up in it have allowed countries in the global south to align themselves more with the PRC or even pursue national sovereignty, like Burkina Faso. Further, the Russo-Ukrainian War has shown that the west is severely deficient in industrial production, the west has flashy toys but can't field them for long. It hasn't strengthened the imperialist bourgeoisie, in fact it's been more of an increase in imperial overhead costs in keeping the system going.

As for jackeroni's agenda, they are pro-Russian in the Russo-Ukrainian War. I wasn't trying to argue against that point. I disagree with the appeared implication that jackeroni is paid propaganda, they haven't made that seem apparent and sufficient evidence is needed, but if your point is that being pro-Russian means the post itself should be discarded I also disagree. Careful analysis of the facts at hand requires looking at all sides, which is something I think you're agreeing with.

[–] terrific@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You make a good point, but in my eyes Russia is just another cog in the machine. Both sides are the same and the Ukrainian war keeps the engine going. Powerful men sacrifice their country's youth on the altar of greed. Nothing new under the sun. There are competing empires within the Empire but it all just solidifies the same selfish attitudes. Anti-imperialism (okay let's get semantic) is something far more subversive in my view.

I didn't say they were paid propaganda, I said they have a different agenda than just leveling the playing field. Which you now also confirm. I also haven't said that the post should be discarded. I just said that it's Russian propaganda (which it is) and I think that's important context. Maybe it's obvious to everyone but me, but I think people should know, and that's why I commented.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

I don't follow, if Russia is fundamentally opposed to western imperialism for its own selfish, pragmatic, even existential reasons, then it's working against imperialism. Russia is not allowed to be a cog in the imperial machine, it asked to be allowed in 2 and a half decades ago but was denied. Russia is a bourgeois nationalist country, sure, it isn't a beacon of socialism, but it's backed into a corner and forced into working with socialist countries like the PRC and working against global imperialism just to continue existing. Russia can't be an empire, it has neither the colonies to extract from nor the financial capital to do so.

As for being propaganda or not, do you list, say, the NYT as western propaganda in the comments too? I think most people are capable of recognizing pro-Russian and anti-Russian sources at this point, so I'm not quite sure what point you're serving other than to draw additonal emphasis.

[–] terrific@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I don't follow, if Russia is fundamentally opposed to western imperialism for its own selfish, pragmatic, even existential reasons, then it's working against imperialism. Russia is not allowed to be a cog in the imperial machine, it asked to be allowed in 2 and a half decades ago but was denied. Russia is a bourgeois nationalist country, sure, it isn't a beacon of socialism, but it's backed into a corner and forced into working with socialist countries like the PRC and working against global imperialism just to continue existing. Russia can't be an empire, it has neither the colonies to extract from nor the financial capital to do so.

I don't know if we can converge on this topic. I think our analyses are just based on very different premises. To me, the system that even allows the West/Russia dichotomy to exist is the Empire, i.e. the current world order which centers around the idea of private property. Anti-empirialism is about fighting the right to property itself.

As for being propaganda or not, do you list, say, the NYT as western propaganda in the comments too? I think most people are capable of recognizing pro-Russian and anti-Russian sources at this point, so I'm not quite sure what point you're serving other than to draw additonal emphasis.

I do, in fact, make a point of pointing out when the media is biased. The Russo-Ukrainian war is not something I debate a lot, and might be a little naive when it comes to the reporting on the issue. I'm sorry if I upset someone by stating something obvious.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 hours ago

I'm a Marxist-Leninist, I'm using Lenin's analysis of imperialism as the highest stage of capitalism. The global north/south divide is imperialism. Russia is not the only country incentivized more to work against the global system of western hegemony, the entire global south stands to gain. Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism, but isn't synonymous with private property. Imperialism is currently a system by which the west loots and plunders the world through massive financial capital and uses millitary force to cement this system. It's why most goods are produced in the global south yet consumed in the global north. Russia isn't a benefactor of that system, it isn't a participant, and is materially incentivized into working against it despite relying on private property because its kept out of it.

Anti-imperialism is about fighting imperialism. We cannot fundamentally progress towards fighting private property without accurately analyzing and engaging the system that most directly perpetuates it globally. Countries in the global south are intentionally underdeveloped to keep them under the thumb of empire, and are attacked with force if they express sovereignty and lack nukes.

As for pointing out when the media is biased, it always is. Bias isn't avoidable. There's hidden bias and overt bias, it's important to distinguish but ultimately all media is told from a viewpoint and with an agenda.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 6 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Sorry I didn’t mean for this conversation to become a semantic debate.

There's literally no other way to interpret your comment

[–] terrific@lemmy.ml -1 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

Thank you for your valuable contribution to this discussion. /s

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 6 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

Russian propaganda outlet.

shut the fuck up, brat

[–] yuri@pawb.social -3 points 7 hours ago

sometimes i wonder why people shit on .ml so much.

sometimes.

[–] terrific@lemmy.ml 0 points 8 hours ago

Bullying strangers on the internet because you disagree with them? I'm sure your mom is very proud of you.