I'm not up to snuff on NATO regulations. As I understand it, if a NATO nation gets attacked, the rest of them are obliged to defend, correct? What happens if that nation is "the aggressor". Like in this situation if Poland were to do a first strike against Belarus or Russia and they respond attacking Poland, is the rest of NATO obliged to help defend Poland?
this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2023
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As long as an attack happens on NATO territory, it's considered an act of war. Even if the NATO country is the aggressor. Ideally the aggressing country would be suspended before they could invoke article 5.
Imagine how dangerous it would be if NATO was, instead of a defensive pact, a transnational nuclear military helmed by the world's foremost genocidal empire that marches across Europe via propaganda and coup d'etats towards it's ultimate goal of encircling Russia and China. What a cluster fuck that would be? In that reality, if a member state launched a war of aggression NATO would probably support it and continue escalation.
Luckily, we know NATO is a defensive force because it didn't launch multiple wars of aggression, drop depleted uranium on civilians, and is democratically accountable.
Oh lemmygrad is leaking.
Oh reddit is leaking
Yes, it is, badly.
BTW: since lemmy (and obviously lemmygrad) was created by communists. Can you explain to me what's so communist about Russia that you and others are so fiercely defending? How are they different from that "imperialistic pig" that is the US? Is it because Russia is fascist now?
Looks to me like you never cared about communist ideology, and it was always about supporting Muscovies and totalitarism.
Nobody said Russia is communist, nor is anybody defending Russia here. People are just explaining to you that the reality is more complex than the propaganda narrative you've guzzled makes it out to be. The only fascists here are the ones who think that people of Ukraine should be used in a proxy war against Russia by the west. So, maybe stop projecting there.
Said the guy with a thumbnail with big CCCP on his forehead.
Standard bullshit pretending that you care about people, dismissing that Ukrainians are fighting for their right to exist. After the war crimes committed, after Bucha and many other places, after Russia admitted to kidnapping nearly a million of Ukrainian children (textbook definition of genocide), after ICC charges for war crimes.
But ok, please outline exactly what should be the peace agreement, who gets what (don't skip any details).
And second, please tell me how Russia, will honor that agreement, when it broke every single one going back to 90s, including Budapest Memorandum where it signed that it will respect Ukraine's borders. The one that it broke in 2003, 2014, 2018 and 2022 (when it decided to go after the rest of Ukraine).
The fact that you made a personal attack followed by a bunch of drivel there that has nothing to do with anything I said is really in character fro you.
What personal attack? Are you saying your thumbnail is offensive to you?
You don't answer these questions, because you don't have a good answer that doesn't show that you are supporting the genocide being committed by Russia.
My thumbnail isn't offensive to me, but a reddit troll talking about it in pejorative fashion is. And your "questions" have nothing to do with anything I said here. However, last I checked it was Ukraine committing ethnic cleansing in Donbas as CNN reported back in 2014. Also, Russia should be held to the same standard western "democracies" are held to. The ones that invaded Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Afghanistan. In fact, US currently occupies a greater percentage of Syria than Russia is occupying of Ukraine while stealing food and oil from the people of Syria. Western war on terror has massacred over 6 million people, and nobody holds a candle to US when it comes to killing civilians. In fact, UK is currently torturing a journalist who exposed US war crimes in Iraq.
But I guess Russia's invasion of Ukraine is different from all that because people in Ukraine have blond hair and blue eyes, so a bunch western racists started caring about wars all of a sudden. You have no moral high ground when your own country commits far worse atrocities than what Russia is doing.
Cool. Poland ain’t gonna start shit.
Any attack on Poland will trigger Article 5.
Poland is a major supply hub and has lost plenty of boots on the ground. Art 5 isn't automatic. US won't risk nuking for expendables. All Europe is expendable.
Europe has nukes, and an industrial capacity that dwarfs Russia multiple times over and is roughly equal to the US.
Russia has about as much chance attacking Europe as Japan would attacking China on their own.
Also without Europe, the US has no capacity to develop semiconductors better than what Russia has. In the extremely unlikely event Europe falls to Russia, the US will not be far behind.
Europe does not have an industrial capacity that comes anywhere close to Russia as is clearly evidenced by the fact that Europe can't even produce basic things like artillery shells at this point. Furthermore, European industrial capacity needs energy to function and the cost of that has gone up significantly. All of this is well documented in mainstream western media, so it's kind of shocking that somebody could be this misinformed https://archive.ph/61ruk
Just read the first line of that article you linked below the title.
Defense contractors are under pressure to ramp up production but want long term government guarantees of sales
It's not that the West has run out of artillery shells. It's that the West's MIC is not willing to ramp up production, since we are not at war, and there is no guarantee that additional manufacturing capacity will pay off for weapons manufacturers once the war ends and there is no need for it any longer.
The EU, particularly Germany has gone through a massive disarmament since the Cold War. It still spends twice as much on its military in absolute terms as Russia. If we are talking total industrial capacity, the EU has 8 times the GDP of Russia.
Just on artillery shells, the 5th biggest artillery force in the world just joined NATO. Do you expect their reserves to be empty?
Uh yeah welcome to capitalist economic relations. Companies aren't going to build giant factories to pump out weapons and ammunition unless they make their money back. Given that EU is now going into a recession and the standard of living is dropping rapidly, gonna be hard to justify all the government subsidies needed to convince your capitalists to start manufacturing weapons.
Meanwhile, GDP overall doesn't mean shit. It's the industrial that actually matters. Most of EU GDP comes from ephemeral things like tourism and service industry. The only major industrial power left in EU is Germany, and it's becoming rapidly deindustrailized as we speak.
Just on artillery shells, the 5th biggest artillery force in the world just joined NATO. Do you expect their reserves to be empty?
Yeah I do, because if they weren't empty US wouldn't be sending cluster munitions to Ukraine right now. US even forced South Korea to send them shells before that happened. NATO lacks industrial capacity to produce weapons at the rate they're being expanded, and anybody who's been paying attention can see it.
On the other hand, Russia inherited the military industrial complex from USSR days and unlike the west it never privatized or dismantled it. Now it's been ramped up and to a capacity that NATO can only dream of.
Is it only me or does Putin look really bad in this photo? I mean he seems unhealthy and in addition to that he looks like he aged 10 years in just 2. Amazing speedrun.
Cool, now do Biden.
edit: I see I hit a nerve 😂
Fuck Putin
Ok, Karen.
Well the troll farms have found lemmy I guess
Yup, lots of burger empire shills have come here from reddit now. We were doing fine without you.
This night for the first time Polish regular soldiers fired on our territory. Since 5:45 a.m. we have been returning the fire, and from now on bombs will be met by bombs.
Can you cite a source?
Edit: thanks for the sources
It's from a brave hero that fought for Ukrainian independence from the Soviet Union in WW2 alongside Stepan Bandera, he's remembered very fondly by them today! /s