Degrowth

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Discussions about degrowth and all sorts of related topics. This includes UBI, economic democracy, the economics of green technologies, enviromental legislation and many more intressting economic topics.

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To save the environment, we must end the profit system (climateandcapitalism.com)

submitted 5 days ago by ccmskw@sh.itjust.works to c/degrowth@slrpnk.net

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[–] MajorHavoc@programming.dev 15 points 5 days ago (1 children)

"Part of capitalist ideology is that no matter what the problem, there is a technical fix. Because if there is no technical fix, then there is something wrong with the society, and the defenders of the society do not want to believe this."

Honestly, that's a pretty generous take.

Part of today's capitalism is "fuck you, I got mine".

I don't know if capitalism can or cannot be compatible with a living life supporting planet, but I agree that, forced to pick between the two, I'll choose the living planet.

Capitalists who love capitalism need to get their asses in gear and prove it can save the planet, if they want to keep capitalism.

[+] BlackLaZoR@fedia.io -6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You know, people are inherently selfish. Don't know how do you want to design effective non-capitalist system around that

[–] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The "selfish human nature" meme was basically invented as a post-hoc justification for the dysfunctional social systems that lead to people behaving that way, it doesn't actually hold up to scrutiny. Thomas Hobbes for instance was taking the cultural memory of the horrors of war and giving people an easy to swallow explanation, he wasn't an anthropologist.

[–] BlackLaZoR@fedia.io -2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The "selfish human nature" meme was basically invented as a post-hoc justification for the dysfunctional social systems

No, it's a biological reality rooted all the way in theory of evolution. It's an inherent part of nature of any living being

[–] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Taking survival of the fittest and using it as evidence of vaguely analogous principles for how human society works has a long history of being wrong. That the way we behave is biased towards survival and reproduction in our native habitat does not imply that the concept of self interest must be at the foundation of how our minds function.

[–] BlackLaZoR@fedia.io -3 points 4 days ago (2 children)

You're trying to throw away milions of years of evolution that shaped us, because why exactly? Evolution is a well established scientific theory, what's your counterargument?

[–] RustlingLeaves@slrpnk.net 2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Human Nature, Hope & Ice Cream

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You may want to take a look at the book "The Dawn of Everything" by David Graeber and David Wengrow. It provides a compelling argument that past human societies were quite egalitarian, cooperative and non-authoritarian, and that the human civilizations of recorded history being the way they are is actually an aberration from the norm.

Quick video summary of the book by one of the author's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SJi0sHrEI4

[–] BlackLaZoR@fedia.io 0 points 4 days ago

You should look into "Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. Cooperative strategies are perfectly viable for selfish reasons - don't mistake cooperative efforts with altruism

[–] anonymous111@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Just use the tax system. We don't need these huge movements to fundamentally change global economics. We just need to tax the things we don't like and it'll be unprofitable for businesses to keep doing them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Problem is, the people who pass tax law are corporate captured, ensuring such hefty tax laws are not enacted.

[–] anonymous111@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Agreed, but how is removing these elected officials easier than removing the profit system?

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 days ago

Both are equally difficult. While it's possible to vote in an FDR-like figure that will tamp back on the worst examples of profit driven exploitation of the planet, I don't think it's possible for the system to self-correct without eventually backsliding due to profit motive, as I believe history has shown in every attempt to reform capitalistic societies.

Personally, I think the best way forward for humanity is to build horizontal structures that will slowly replace the need to rely on the state/for-profit institutions, aka Prefiguration. The fediverse itself is a nice example of that happening.