Communists belong in DSA : chapotraphouse

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Okay, so I read the article. But I have to say I've really enjoyed the back-and-forth between you and others supporting the PSL. Besides being fun meow-popcorn , it is genuinely enlightening so I want to thank you for participating in the discussion.

I have to admit I also have an anti-DSA bias because of bad experiences with DSA I've had myself, but I also know good people that were heavily involved in DSA and eventually got burned. So I appreciate the work of trying to push it further to the Left and to accept a more Communist guideline. I can especially appreciate since sometimes it's the only Leftist game in town for some areas, so it isn't totally meaningless to push, in my opinion. And I don't really know as much about PSL but I do have a tendency to think that if Communists can that they should join a Marxist-Leninist Party.

Whether that should necessarily be PSL or another Party, I don't know. And your critique about the Central Committee choosing 40% of the delegates is a good one, I can also see how a desire to maintain the direction and ideology of a relatively new Communist organization requires some suspension of democracy. But undoing the liberal concept of "democracy" is something I've mentioned recently before is something I've been working on myself, I think sometimes a Communist Party doesn't need to be fully democratic if it's defending or implementing proper Communist ideology. On the other hand, I also don't know if I would personally want to join some Party where my position and contribution is less important and meaningful in the face of bureaucratism. Maybe that's my own ego I also need to work on, and I wouldn't want to be Party Leader or anything, but I do see value in seeing and feeling your work going into something that wasn't already decided for you.

Anyway, interesting post so thanks for posting and discussing!

[–] ThereRisesARedStar@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I think democracy is important for non-ego reasons- scientific socialism works better within an internal democracy, democratic consultation and deliberation create institutional knowledge in a way bureaucracies don't.

I don't see any reasonable benefit to PSL not being democratic at this stage of the struggle- if they don't have the educational capacity to onboard new members they should create probation membership status (less ideal but those membership dues though) or stagger cohorts.

[–] Dimmer06@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

While I think the members of Red Star mean well and their faction generally has good positions, I've gotta push back on the idea that they've significantly pushed DSA's international work broadly or their anti-zionist work specifically in a better direction. The recent gutting of the anti-zionist resolution by the NPC and the retraction of the statements on the Venezuelan election and the Israeli assassination in Iran show that at the highest level DSA is firmly in control of chauvinist social democrats on these issues (I had to scoff when I heard of the "left" NPC getting elected last year, as if Bread and Roses are left lol)

Furthermore, DSA's position on the presidential election has always been firmly invested in working within the Democratic party as seen by their focus on the "uncommitted" movement and their recent statement about Harris picking Walz as her VP. They still hide in their dirty break/party surrogate position which functionally ends up the same as the CP's line.

There are a lot of good people in DSA and I learned a lot when I was a member but the organization is fundamentally repelled by any sort of discipline and the social fascists on it's right wing maintain their power through that disorder and have demonstated that they do not care if their opportunism harms the organization or anyone else for that matter. Changing it into something viable would take an immense amount of work that would be sabotaged by SMC/Groundwork/B&R every step of the way, or you could just join an actual Leninist org.

[–] Spike@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Have the DSA apologised to Cuba yet?

[–] ThereRisesARedStar@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago

Nope, although some caucuses have published stuff like this: https://redstarcaucus.org/cuban-links/ and the international committee is establishing guidelines for future trips to prevent the same nonsense from happening. We should apologize but Cuba also understands that DSA is a big tent org with some shitty folks in it.

[–] propter_hog@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Today's not April 1st, is it?

[–] ThereRisesARedStar@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Not that I can tell, what did you think of the article?

[–] da_gay_pussy_eatah@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

It's interesting how you only draw comparisons with CPUSA. You claim that it has "the most potential to be the groundwork for a future party." I would contend, however, that the PSL is a current party that people can organize with today.

You're Marxist Leninists, yet you do not organize under the principles of democratic centralism. Why not? Do you intend to somehow transform the DSA into a democratic centralist organization? Do you really believe that the liberals, social democrats, and democratic socialists that comprise most of the DSA would just go along with that? You can't expect to just take the existing membership of the DSA and magically convert them into a committed Marxist Leninist cadre.

As it stands, the DSA are not principled anti-imperialists, as evidenced by their failure to take a principled stance in support of Palestinian resistance in the wake of Al-Aqsa Flood, or their anti-communist stances on Cuba and AES. This isn't a "past" issue, it's ongoing. How do you address that? Why is it the "correct" strategy to attempt entryism into the DSA instead of joining a real, existing Marxist Leninist party?

[–] ThereRisesARedStar@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I guess I haven't been particularly impressed by PSL from the outside? It seems like they put a lot of effort into presidential runs and that doesn't seem like a very good use of time?

At the local level, DSA folks are active in local Palestinian stuff, we see PSL folks at actions but we don't see them integrating as much into the logistics or trying to elevate the struggle. We see them agitating and mobilizing but not doing a good job organizing, and maybe that is because they keep it entirely internal but I'd expect to see more local PSL folks integrated by now if that was happening.

You're Marxist Leninists, yet you do not organize under the principles of democratic centralism.

??? Has red star said they aren't demcent?

Why not? Do you intend to somehow transform the DSA into a democratic centralist organization? Do you really believe that the liberals, social democrats, and democratic socialists that comprise most of the DSA would just go along with that? You can't expect to just take the existing membership of the DSA and magically convert them into a committed Marxist Leninist cadre.

I don't think you can magically make them MLs, but over the last few years DSA has moved significantly left, it can absolutely be made into a non-cringe org

As it stands, the DSA are not principled anti-imperialists, as evidenced by their failure to take a principled stance in support of Palestinian resistance in the wake of Al-Aqsa Flood, or their anti-communist stances on Cuba and AES. This isn't a "past" issue, it's ongoing. How do you address that? Why is it the "correct" strategy to attempt entryism into the DSA instead of joining a real, existing Marxist Leninist party?

I think the natural momentum of DSA is toward it being a more reliably anti-imperialist org, and I think it is worthwhile to add to it.

But on a more practical level, if in my local area there are more DSA folks engaged in pro-Palestinian actions than there even are PSL folks total, why would I join PSL? What practical advantages are gained by moving the pro-Palestine folks out of DSA?

[–] da_gay_pussy_eatah@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

It seems like they put a lot of effort into presidential runs and that doesn't seem like a very good use of time?

The presidential runs aren't an attempt to gain power by being elected to office. They are a propaganda campaign to spread a socialist platform. The campaign process itself is an opportunity to have tens or hundreds of thousands of conversations about our socialist platform. The amount of votes in the election are an interesting metric, but not a key objective.

we see PSL folks at actions but we don't see them integrating as much into the logistics or trying to elevate the struggle.

This is actually absurd. The PSL has been organizing in the struggle for Palestinian liberation for decades. They were organizing demonstrations on October 8th while almost everyone else was still condemning Hamas. They've organized like 5 mass protests on Washington. I don't know what your local scene looks like, but the PSL is the most important socialist org that is organizing for Palestinian liberation on a national scale.

[–] ThereRisesARedStar@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

The presidential runs aren't an attempt to gain power by being elected to office. They are a propaganda campaign to spread a socialist platform. The campaign process itself is an opportunity to have tens or hundreds of thousands of conversations about our socialist platform. The amount of votes in the election are an interesting metric, but not a key objective.

This still seems like a waste of time? Why not do something that can allow for conversations and also might have utility outside of allowing for conversations?

The DSA isn't, and I don't think they ever will be.

Is PSL actually demcent though? Is it true that up to 40 percent of the delegates are picked by the central committee? https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/6/mode/2up

How can you engage in demcent when the highest body can pick 40 percent of the delegates? That sounds like a recipe for bureaucratic ossification?

This is actually absurd. The PSL has been organizing in the struggle for Palestinian liberation for decades. They were organizing demonstrations on October 8th while the DSA was still condemning Hamas. They've organized like 5 mass protests on Washington. I don't know what your local scene looks like, but if you're weighing the relative importance of the PSL and the DSA in the national struggle for Palestinian liberation, it's the PSL and it's not even close.

All I can speak to is my local conditions, and my local conditions are we have two PSL folks who think passing out PSL stickers at protests is worthwhile but going to planning meetings isn't. We're trying to get folks to think more strategically, about what they're trying to accomplish and how to meet those goals, and it feels like PSL is just interested in shallowly engaging for recruitment.

[–] ch1l@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Genuine question, I spent time with CPUSA and DSA, and still will go to events if they align with my values, but have largely found that the membership are primarily liberals who are very socially progressive, but ultimately only really care about domestic policy. Is the PSL considered more serious? I felt burned by the other two, but want to still be involved in local efforts where I can.

[–] LesbianLiberty@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago

Yeah, in my experience across the board the PSL is a robust and ideologically coherent party with an incredibly engaged membership. Biased though, as this experience is colored by my experiences working as a member of the party. I think that one should join whatever principled and (importantly!) effective ML org in their area, but I'm happy to say that for me and my area it fills this role exactly.

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

May be a dumb question, but is PSL Trot?

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Has Trot roots, but generally works as a regular Marxist-Leninist party now. Same with Workers World Party and a few others. They're cool now.

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Cool, was curious because of their roots. Thanks!

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

They support AES and anti-imperialist movements. Not "trots" in the same way those wreckers are.

[–] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Wait, so is PSL somehow Trot then? I'm confused now. bocchi-cry

[–] da_gay_pussy_eatah@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago

The PSL split from a party that was, many decades ago, a Trot party. But the PSL itself has never been a Trot party (split memes notwithstanding), and that history is pretty irrelevant to what the party is today.

The PSL doesn't really bother to have "a line" on Trotsky or Stalin. Rather, it correctly eschews that "great person" framing of history and instead analyses the historical material conditions of the Soviet Union etc. It's certainly not "anti-Stalinist" like Trots always are; nobody is going to look at you strangely for speaking positively of Stalin.

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

No no, I'm saying that PSL doesn't do any of the shit we hate trots for. They're cool.

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

We can pull the DSA left!

an absolute mark

[–] ThereRisesARedStar@hexbear.net 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It's moving left though? Certainly not fast enough to meet this revolutionary moment but it is.