this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2025
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OH YEAH THEYRE TALKING ABOUT IT NOW

Please do not remove mods, really sorry for the Google AMP link, but this is a "subscribers only" blocked article on CNN that for some reason AMP just straight up bypasses and opens fine.

Direct link: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/10/us/jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-defense/index.html.

Edit 1: updated title, CNN changed it on me

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[–] JonsJava@lemmy.world 194 points 5 days ago (5 children)

Jury nullification is an important logical conclusion of American jurist rules. This post will stay up.

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago

It's literally the reason to have juries. It's the last line of defense against unjust laws.

[–] AutistoMephisto@lemmy.world 11 points 4 days ago

Thank you, Based Mod. Not every day, we see one.

[–] Lemming6969@lemmy.world 15 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)
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[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 83 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Repost of my own comment in a different community:

I would say that jury nullification isn’t just some accident of the legal system, but the primary reason we have juries in the first place.

Judges will say that juries are meant to just decide the simple facts of the case. But what sane person would ever design a system that assigns 12 random untrained nobodies to do that task? If all that mattered was judging the facts of the case, why not have 12 legal scholars instead? Why isn’t “juror” a profession, just like being a lawyer or judge is? If we want people to just apply the letter of the law to the facts of a case, why not fill juries with professionals, each who had a legal degree, and who have sat as jurors hundreds of times? Judging evidence and reading law is a skill. And it’s one that can be educated on, trained, and practiced. Why do we have amateur juries, when professional juries would clearly do their purported job so much better? Or why not just do what some countries do, and have most or all trials decided solely by judges? What exactly is the point of a jury? Compared to everything else in the courtroom, the jurors, the ones actually deciding guilt or innocence, are a bunch of untrained amateurs. On its face, it makes no damn sense!

No, the true reason, and really the only reason, we have juries at all is so that juries can serve to judge both the accused AND the law. Juries are meant to be the final line of defense against unjust laws and prosecution. It is possible for a law itself to be criminal or corrupt. Legislative systems can easily be taken over by a tiny wealthy or powerful minority of the population, and they can end up passing laws criminalizing behaviors that the vast majority of the population don’t even consider to be crimes.

The entire purpose of having a jury is that it places the final power of guilt and innocence directly in the hands of the people. Juries are meant as a final line of defense against corrupt laws passed by a minority against the wishes of the greater majority. An unaccountable elite can pass whatever ridiculous self-serving laws they want. But if the common people simply refuse to uphold those laws in the jury box, those laws are meaningless.

THAT is the purpose of a jury. It is the only reason juries are worth the trouble. A bunch of rank amateurs will never be able to judge the facts of a case better than actual trained legal scholars with years of experience. But by empowering juries, it places the final authority of the law firmly in the hands of the people. That is the value of having a jury at all.

Jury nullification is not just some strange quirk or odd loophole in our justice system. It’s the entire reason we have juries in the first place.

[–] Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 4 days ago

Also a guard against corruption. It's much harder to keep bribing random jurors than getting and keeping "Jurors" that you can control. See the US Supreme Court as a cautionary tale.

[–] AlpacaChariot@lemmy.world 12 points 4 days ago

It's also because jurors are asked to judge the probability of something happening, not just whether it happened, so it's not something that you can leave to professionals because judging motive etc requires a representative sample of the population and not some remote legal class of citizens.

[–] 843563115848z@thelemmy.club 154 points 5 days ago (17 children)

Let's not forget, maybe, just maybe, this guy is absolutely innocent, was nowhere near the crime at the time, and had nothing to do with it.

And the cops, in their over zeal to catch someone, anyone, found a poor unlucky person who looks like the guy in the crime scene photos and handily fabricated the rest of the physical evidence. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Seriously, a written statement admitting guilt? How likely is that? Anyway, this is what I think is happening. And I doubt the real truth will ever be known, sadly.

[–] galaskorz@discuss.online 56 points 5 days ago (8 children)

Yeah, they were pretty quick to say some random guy in a hoodie was also this same random guy in a hoodie getting coffee. Where is this excellent police work in all the other crimes?

I truly am going to laugh so fucking hard if it is really not him and there is evidence putting him in a completely different location but still near by. They will have spent all this time focusing on the wrong person while the actual killer has made a complete getaway.

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 37 points 5 days ago (1 children)

All the other crimes didn't involve the owner class.

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[–] YoHuckleberry@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I was talking about this the other day. I hope he has an airtight alibi to just rub in all of their faces.

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[–] Prandom_returns@lemm.ee 58 points 4 days ago (9 children)

Hmm, maybe convict him, but give him no penalty and no imprisonment?

That's a thing, right?

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 20 points 4 days ago

Is if you're Trump

[–] madcaesar@lemmy.world 24 points 4 days ago (2 children)

We the jury find the defendant GUILTY! We sentance him to a fine of $1 and a lifetime membership to United Healthcare!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[–] Wiz@midwest.social 17 points 4 days ago

lifetime membership to United Healthcare!

So, the death penalty?

[–] Lemminary@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago

With all claims pre-approved and irrevocable.* Because you know these fuckers will try a fast one.

[–] mrcleanup@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago

I think the judge decides the penalty after the jury decides on guilt.

[–] ThomasCrappersGhost@feddit.uk 19 points 4 days ago

Yeah, I think that happened to some really important guy a few days back.

[–] frayedpickles@lemmy.cafe 1 points 2 days ago

Only if you're rich

[–] sibannac@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)
[–] jim_v@lemmy.world 8 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

**Hmm, maybe convict him, but give him no penalty and no imprisonment?

That's a thing, right?**

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[–] xc2215x@lemmy.world 151 points 5 days ago (1 children)

All the best to Luigi. Good luck to him.

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[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 103 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Jury nullification is the term for when a jury declines to convict a defendant despite overwhelming evidence of guilt. This can be a form of civil disobedience, a political statement against a specific law, or a show of empathy and support to the defendant.

“It’s not a legal defense sanctioned under the law,” said Cheryl Bader, associate professor of law at Fordham School of Law. “It’s a reaction by the jury to a legal result that they feel would be so unjust or morally wrong that they refuse to impose it, despite what the law says.”

Over the centuries, American juries have nullified cases related to controversial topics like fugitive slave laws, Prohibition and, in recent decades, the war on drugs.

Giggity.

[–] Pips@lemmy.sdf.org 35 points 5 days ago (6 children)

Jury nullification is also why cops who murder people and klansmen get acquitted. It's not necessarily a good thing, just a quirk of the system.

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[–] tomi000@lemmy.world 34 points 4 days ago

“I wonder whether a jury, whether they get impaneled, really buys his message, hates health care so much that they say, ‘Hey, look, we saw what you did. We know what you did, but we’ll excuse it,’” CNN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson said last month.

Sure, 'hating healthcare' is the issue here...

[–] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 51 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (5 children)

Jury nullification doesn't really exist. It's just an attempt to label something the jury decides that you believe goes against the law. The fact is, the jury is part of the law, and the jury can decide what parts of it are relevant, are enforceable in the case, and which need special considerations. Complaining about "jury nullification" is complaining about one of the fewest democratic elements in the judicial system, a system that on its own is almost completely autocratic and as such that much more susceptible to the formation of oligarchies and nepotism from within.

[–] JonsJava@lemmy.world 39 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (20 children)

It's actually the conclusion of 2 things:

  • Double Jeopardy means your cannot try someone twice for the same crime
  • A juror cannot be held accountable for a decision they make

If both hold true, then logically, a jury can make a decision against legal precedent, without fear of repercussion - unless they are paid/coerced to come to that conclusion, and the defendant - once cleared by by a jury - cannot be tried again.

This means that legally, a jury can say GTFO to jury instructions set by judges.

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[–] Reverendender@sh.itjust.works 85 points 5 days ago (1 children)

“This is not a case of (Mangione) like throwing blood on this guy as he’s walking into the convention,” Bader said, referring to the scene of the shooting outside an investors’ conference in Midtown Manhattan. “If the jury finds that there’s evidence that he ended this man’s life in cold blood, I don’t see the result being an acquittal because of anger toward the health insurance system.”

Dumbass

[–] peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 37 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I don't see the result being acquittal because of the anger toward the health insurance system.

Feels like Mr. Bader himself might be a little out of touch with just how bad the health insurance system is.

[–] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 17 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Its hard for rich people to understand. I have no sympathy for their predicament

[–] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 76 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Juries also have acquitted some abused women who killed or attacked their husbands, such as Francine Hughes, leading to a wider recognition of what’s known as battered woman syndrome.

“Juries recognized that before the law did,” Conrad said. “The law is slow to change. Sometimes society changes much more quickly than the law, and that is when jury nullification should come in … We don’t need to have 18th-century law governing 21st-century behavior, and the jury can say so.”

New phrase added to the American lexicon in 2025 - battered patient syndrome.

[–] Elkot@lemmy.world 18 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Honestly, I'm amazed Luigi hasn't had an "accident" in jail

[–] mouserat@discuss.tchncs.de 29 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Not sure if you refer to this accident, but Jeffrey knew too much and was a risk. Luigi is not a risk anymore, his followers are. And they would probably be fueled by his death.

[–] PauloPelle@lemmy.world 11 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Yeah; he's already become evangelised to an absolutely insane degree globally that the ruling class didn't see coming, making any rash moves, especially any that would martydom him, would backfire.

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[–] boaratio@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

I know it's in NYC, but I live in New York State and really hope I get a summons.

[–] Bluefalcon@discuss.tchncs.de 34 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Please, please, god don't put me on the jury. I would hate to hold a murderer accountable for getting in the way of an innocent man's bullets.

[–] MutilationWave@lemmy.world 18 points 5 days ago

I've been on a jury in the last little place I lived and you better believe they made sure it was all employed older white people against a young black man. I was the youngest on at 28. What they did to me is made me sit in a room with these, some probably decent, people, while one guy just talked and talked and lied and told fake stories like long discredited shit while a bunch were like oh yeah and I remember.

Fucking makes me sick. Sick at myself that I was such a little shit at that age that I didn't tell the old prick to shut the fuck up and stop lying. But what really makes me sick was after sitting in a room for hours with these people is the state's house slave walks in with cops and says we just walked the guy by, showed him who was going to convict him, and he took the plea deal. Fucking gross. Don't believe your fucking TV this is how most cases go.

[–] galaskorz@discuss.online 29 points 5 days ago (4 children)

He’s not guilty of murder. These people just can’t wrap their head around a jury NOT convicting someone with a lot of evidence but never seem to care about convicting people WITHOUT much evidence. Clutch your pearls all you want, if he is found not guilty there are gonna be more not-guilty people.

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[–] jlh@lemmy.jlh.name 19 points 5 days ago (1 children)

the whole point of a jury is to allow the people to decide the law on individual cases. There are many problems with juries, but complaining about jury nullification just means you don't like the good parts of having a jury.

[–] Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net 12 points 4 days ago (2 children)

There are good parts and bad parts to it. Historically, it was used for good in the form of letting slaves go free. It was also historically used to let lynch mobs go free, which is horrifying.

It's not 100% good, nor is it 100% bad.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 31 points 5 days ago (9 children)

Why the hell is CNN charging a subscription now? Are people really stupid enough to pay it?

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