The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rule 1- All posts must begin with YSK.
All posts must begin with YSK. If you're a Mastodon user, then include YSK after @youshouldknow. This is a community to share tips and tricks that will help you improve your life.
Rule 2- Your post body text must include the reason "Why" YSK:
**In your post's text body, you must include the reason "Why" YSK: It’s helpful for readability, and informs readers about the importance of the content. **
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding non-YSK posts.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-YSK posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.
If you harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
If you are a member, sympathizer or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- The majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.
You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.
For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.
Our icon(masterpiece) was made by @clen15!
grinding
glances at my 300 hours of OldSchool Runescape
You should try a healthier hobby, like heroin.
Only 300? XD
That game is nothing but grind after like 20 hours.
Reading the descriptions on the dark patterns and dark social patterns, That's actually the stuff I miss about world of Warcraft.
Literally just found out yesterday my wife has been spending on average 100$ a month on one of these games yesterday, thanks for the helpful site.
Now I guess I get to figure out how to have conversations with her that I never thought I'd have to have.
Oh no! That's so annoying, maybe can help her quit by finding a better version of the game.
Like stupid match 3/candy crush trash has a million free clones.
Thanks for the advice. I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around the appeal or what it does for her. The app is called Gold and Goblins, and it's an idle game. I've never understood idle games as a genre but I want to try to come from an understanding place. I'm a PC gamer myself (factorio currently) and I'm used to paying once for a game and being able to play forever.
I mean I have my own problems as well, my addictions are caffeine and nicotine. So I'm definitely not a saint. But it's hard to talk to her about it when she pulls the whataboutism on my vices. I get it, my stuff is wasted money as well. I just don't really see it as the same thing, Noone is compelling me with a time limited event or something to get me to smoke more.
Edit: I'm also actively quitting both my vices, while hers are getting worse. I just worry so much about how it's affecting her and her mental health.
I've played Gold and Goblins, it's a typical idle skinner box; these companies hire the same people casinos do, to design their games to be addictive. It is a gambling addiction, same as if it were actual slot machines
Do you have a "vices" budget? Maybe that's one approach. You both get $100 or whatever and she blows hers on mobile games, while you're cutting back and have money for other things.
This is a good idea to keep everyone accountable
Obviously I don't know what your finances are like, but is it possible she's just enjoying herself and considers it a hobby? Comparing it to other games, $100/month can seem ridiculous, but comparing it to other hobbies, it might not be that bad.
I used to be unwilling to spend any amount on a mobile game until I thought about how much I used to spend playing Magic: the Gathering. Sometimes hobbies cost money.
Oof yeah I sometimes get drawn into idle games. It's weird to be pulled into those, because just the constant feeling of accomplishing something short circuits my brain, combined with "Oh I should check in on my game once a day, or I'm not accomplishing things". Usually once I stop playing for a few days I go "oh, why did I care?" But it feels real bad in the mean time.
Invested / Endowed Value - Having already spent time and money to improve your status in the game, it's difficult to throw it away.
Isn't that every game? I can't think of a single game, back to old Atari 2600 or arcade games, that doesn't have this element. Many people are playing to see how far they can get, to beat the game.
I looked at their individual page (https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/4/psychological-dark-patterns.html)...
If deleting the game and starting over from scratch sounds like a horrible idea and a waste of your investment, then the game has Endowed Value for you. The more time and money that you invest in the game, the more value it has over a fresh copy of the game.
So I guess they are referring to is something more transactional... for example, if I spent $100 on a gacha game or loot boxes to get a bunch of ultra-rare SSRs. I'd be pretty compelled to keep playing since I've already spent so much money on it.
They are not counting, for example, that I get hooked on some weird roguelike game because I genuinely want to get better at it but can stop any time. And if I lose my save file I would still happily start from scratch again (which, hilariously, a pattern named Infinite Treadmill is marked for both Slay the Spire and Balatro... https://www.darkpattern.games/pattern/14/infinite-treadmill.html)
I mean, games without memory didn't. Because once you turned off the game, it was all gone. This is more referring to if you have spent $200 on a game, and have like special event stuff in it, you'll struggle to give it up.
But again, this is all part of bigger pictures. If it has this + grinding + time lock things + micro transactions it's a problem. Games with just a couple of the features still have a high score of like 3+ and will be good games. Some of the things it asks about are only problems paired with other mechanics, while some categories are by themselves enough to be a problem.
It's kinda funny, I've become so turned off to these manipulations that the gamification of duolingo just annoys me more than it motivates me. The whole point is to learn a language. Power ups that let you extend the time to complete a timed exercise don't help with learning a language. Getting to the top of the leaderboard didn't make a difference either, especially if it was done using xp boosts.
At this point, I just hate that it forces me to spend time watching various meaningless bars fill up after each lesson.
I've even missed a couple of days, thinking "oh well, there goes my streak, which also doesn't really matter", only to find that they cared more about keeping that than I did and have automatic freezes. Though it wanted me to buy more after the last one, so I'm thinking the next time I miss a day it'll finally go back to 0.
Oh and yes, duolingo is a pay to win language learning game where you can give them money for boosts in the meaningless gamification shit. Even after buying a year subscription (that I don't plan on renewing).
They also completely skip any of the foundational stuff and jump right in to phrases that they don't explain. I'm a few months into Japanese lessons on there and it still hasn't even mentioned that it's been teaching the polite form and that other forms exist (which makes things confusing if you try to use other resources that generally use the neutral form).
It might be better for other languages that aren't so different from English, but I do not suggest duolingo if you want to learn Japanese.
Tbh I don't suggest learning Japanese at all if you aren't strong with languages and memorization. There's a couple thousand kanji symbols you need to learn for everyday communication, and each of those can be combined with others to form words that aren't always intuitive, and then those words can be strung together into sentences that also aren't intuitive to interpret.
Yeah I did the Spanish for months and it was like "You're so high level!" but I realized as soon as I stepped back that I mostly had just gotten good at playing their games because they were formatted where the answers were generally obvious, to where I felt like just memorizing key words then trying to read children's books would have been more helpful.
So yeah they for sure use a dozen dark patterns. Making you feel like your account is valuable, making you feel bad for skipping, giving you bonuses for playing on their schedule, and making you feel better at the language than you are.
Lol Spanish is one language that I had assumed might actually work decently with that approach, but I can't say I'm surprised it doesn't.
And yeah, they do seem to design the exercises to be easy. Like translate a sentence to English, but they only give one verb option, or sometimes they don't even provide any options that aren't a part of the sentence and it becomes "can you string these English words together to form a valid sentence with hints in the language you are learning?"
I'm using another app specific to Japanese that at least has grouped the answers in ways that make it harder but more effective because I need to tell the difference between similar looking kanji. It's frustrating, but at least the frustration comes from being annoyed at my own pace rather than from getting a false sense that I'm doing very well only to realize I barely know anything without multiple choice hints.
I'm sure it worked for some people, but for me my brain just picked up the super obvious patterns before picking up much spanish.
It is possible, though I think it's one of those products whose success is based more on customer testimonials than actual statistics about it's effectiveness.
They might exist, but I haven't met anyone who has said they were able to use duolingo to become fluent or even competent in a language.
But then again, my German learned from a class in high school isn't much better. Hell, my French leaned from being in French immersion all through elementary school followed by normal French classes in high school isn't even at a competent level, though I can at least communicate a bit in French. I can still see those subject-verb conjugation tables though lol (though I've lost the French version of "them/they").
Interesting. I was chatting with a lot of big name AAA designers and indie designers discussing dark patterns, and they've got a very different opinion on what constitutes a dark pattern. To them, largely, it needs to be more technical deception - like having a fake "X" button, or immediately popping up an ad over where a button was to trick you into clicking it, or bait-and-switching pricing before the user notices.
I tried to raise these kinds of patterns as problematic, and it was a mixed bag. The general vibe from them was that they'd only call it a dark pattern if it deceives the player to get more money than they were prepared to spend (or similar for ads). If the player knows what they're getting into, and they are presented with a choice to stop or continue, it's on them.
And I'll admit, while I don't go that far (and there were designers in both camps), I can at least understand how all game design is manipulation, in the same way that teaching and storytelling is manipulation, and drawing the lines can be very hard. Your job is to convince the player that they are having fun and want to keep playing. Resources in a game have no real value, only valued by the scarcity and utility of them, which the designer intentionally assigns to convince the player it's more or less valuable.
Curiously, the examples listed in the OP were exactly the patterns I see designers discuss, but don't seem to be the patterns on the website (like "illusion of control", artificial scarcity, which is like, game designs while thing).
Either way, nice to have this as a resource because honestly a lot of these elements are what I'd put in the "bad / abusive design" category rather than purely dark patterns, but still great to highlight, but I can agree that we should probably be careful blanket calling these dark patterns; examples: It mentions illusion of control being separating you into shards of leader boards so that you can be in the top 500 of a shard rather than top 200,000 world ranking or whatever, or claw machines choosing whether you successfully grab an item rather than relying on skill. How does this compare to Uncharted not letting enemies successfully shoot you in the first few seconds of an action sequence to give you time to ground yourself, or Resident Evil spawning different loot and enemies based on how good/bad you play?
I'd say, is it to extract money from you in the short term, but it's more grey than a non-designer might read into from lists like these.
I'm shocked that the people who stand to benefit from it have a different definition than we do.
i'm sure they'd be fine with it if it were their kids on the receiving end, right?
All I'm commenting on, as a game design researched and professor, is that it's an established term in a discipline which means something else to those actually within the discipline. These are still patterns, and they can absolutely be harmful patterns, but the terminology is being overloaded and there is some interesting nuance within it.
Also, just to comment on the last quip there, and yes - to those I've spoken to, they are okay with those because they (being actively involved in the industry) know more than most people to educate and supervise and ensure that playing games with these patterns doesn't turn into harmful behaviours. They also call them out for what they are - often, very bad design.
I guess that's really the line they drew - these patterns are more gray than the examples they presented. Most are good sometimes and terrible other times depending on how it is used. The term "dark patterns" as used professionally refers to always bad, always deceptive, always harmful. I do like having that line, even if it means the dark side is a much smaller subset of the greater space, then you can easily say, "If this uses a single dark pattern, it's out. If it uses a lot of 'grey' patterns, be cautious. If it's nothing but grey patterns, it's purely abusive trash."
I mean I think this site goes with "overly broad so you can pick what you want" approach.
Also the way I'm viewing it, is each individual item is a thread of a dark pattern. Weaved into normal game play it's completely fine. It's just when all the threads of a category come together is it a pattern designed to trigger addiction and over spending.
Like competition is listed under a category, but if that's the only item in the category, it still has a stellar score and rightfully so and isn't listed as a dark pattern.
Yeah, that's definitely the way to see it, and as that I think it's great. I think it might overload the term dark patterns a bit too much, and would have liked to have seen a different name used (as a game design academic), but I absolutely agree with and appreciate the approach otherwise.
Edit to include, I guess why I have that hesitation with an example - I couldn't link this in a class I'm teaching without loads of caveats because suddenly 80% of the curriculum gets seen as abusive when it's really just experience design and explain the grey (which we do, so this is quite helpful for that particular purpose), and I would need to caveat that when they see the term out in the wild it will be used differently.
That makes sense! The list of dark games probably is most helpful to be like "here's a list of games made to be addictive, what features that we spoke about are present in the games on this list?"
Back in uni, most of these dark patterns were taught as "game design fundamentals".
Now as I work on my indie games, I avoid using what I learned in uni.
Game design all boils down to "is it fun?" and anything else is bullshit sales tactics.
I wish the site also focused on real games, and not just mobile games.
They said they'll expand to steam eventually, but sounds like they wanted to focus on mobile to start because it has biggest player base and most of the dark patterns are industry norms for mobile.
What games do you make? If you're actively working on games that are anti dark pattern then that's the type of game I want to hear about
I'm sorry, I'd share some links, but I make too many shitposts and unhinged takes on this account to want to link to my projects and thus my real name.
But I would argue that most at least somewhat successful indie games (at least on PC) have very few dark patterns.
I think the focus on mobile is due to the fact that very few people would choose to make a fun game on mobile unless they were deliberately chasing money. Indie devs don't want to use and make customers use an inferior device with more hoops to jump through. Publishing for PC is easy, publishing for Console has a higher bar to clear for quality. Publishing for mobile is more difficult than PC and makes it more difficult to build a quality game, so the majority of mobile games are unrewarding trash so the only incentive to make them is pure monetization.
Also because the install base for mobile devices is just about everyone everywhere, and yes, a fair amount of people, particularly young people, would much rather play something on their phone than a PC or even console.
The difference in potential customer base is orders of magnitude larger.
It's sad that the most unhealthy games are the ones ranked as most played on the google play store 😮💨
It's not sad, there is a direct connection.
They are the top games because of the psychological manipulation being successful.
I mean... It's also sad
Very much so :( I've played some genuinely really fun games in the top list, but the instant you start playing you can feel what they are about.
Like I've been playing Warhammer 40k Tacticus. It's really cool!... I'll probably play it for another week or two at most. Every action I take brings up a suggestion for me to buy something. Everything requires energy. There are about 50 different currency types. I get alerts that I've completed quests... that I can't turn in because they are quests only available if you buy the premium Battle pass. Or the ULTIMATE battle pass. Like you unlock a new character and instantly it pops up like "Congrats on your new character, would you like to spend $20 to level them up so they're not useless?"
It's fun because I'm still unlocking more story content at a decent clip, but as soon as it's a day between 20 second lore drops I'll have to uninstall. Which sucks, because the game play is fun and interesting since it's modeled after the mechanics of 40k with the customization of a video game.
So yeah, very sad.
Just capitalism infecting and ruining another form of art
I’ll probably play it for another week or two at most.
I, too, can quit anytime I want.
Haha good call out, but yeah I play this way on purpose and jump from freemium game to freemium game. I've gotten pretty good at jumping as soon as it feels like money is the only way to make progress, but to be clear I used to not be good at it and have wasted a few hundred dollars on stupid p2w games. I really want to try to stick to these nicer games now that I have a cool website to help me find them.
Thanking for sharing OP. This is really good.
Someone shared it with me the other day and I fell in love so had to share!
If you want games just to play games I recommend downloading from f Droid. Pretty much every other game has ulterior motives be it ads or microtransactions. I haven't come across a game on f Droid yet that has either of those.
Fair. Just that the selection of quality games is rather limited.
IMO monetisation is fine, after all we all need to earn a living. To goad people into spending money is the issue. Enter dark patterns.
A one-off purchase after testing the first level? Awesome! Wait a few hours - or days - for a building to finish? Watch a deceptive ad for a meager reward over and over? No, thanks.