Really need to figure out how to filter keywords in Lemmy. I swear every second article I see is a variation of, 'WAI IS NO1 TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL!?!?!?"
this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2024
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Why do you think Hamas are the good guys? What conceivable quality do you like about them?
Who are you talking to? The author of the article literally said "I condemn Hamas" three times in the second paragraph.
You expect me to read obvious propaganda? It's just Palestine playing the victim. Again. Because they're cowardly bastards.
Yes, I do expect people to read articles before responding to them. What is the point of using discussion-based social media if you're not here for an educated discussion on the topic? If you want to have a partisan screaming match just use Twitter.
I wouldn't bother engaging. They're not commenting in good faith, they're just trying to annoy us and waste our time.
Palestine playing the victim
Umm, yes? Because they literally are the victim? Of an active genocide that started in October last year, and of apartheid and colonisation that has been going on for decades.
Until Israel goes back to the 1949 borders at least (realistically, that leaves the Gaza strip insanely restricted, and the UN's 1947 plan for Gaza was so much better), and leaves Palestine alone and punishes Israeli settlers, while ceasing treating Palestinian Israelis as second-class citizens, Israel will remain by far the worse party in this scenario.
Nice genocide evasion script you got going there.
Idk that script was really convincing. I now think that little baby Hind deserved to die, along with all those other kids. She lived in an ethno state so, what were the Israelis to do besides ruthlessly murder her?
As we all know, the Warsaw ghetto was an ethnostate, that had to go. The slums still being bombed to the south of Beirut, the thuds which have kept me up all night? Overwhelmingly Shia Muslim. That’s right folks, another ethnostate that needs to be destroyed. By the IDF which is definitely not the arm of an ethnostate.
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OK now you're just straight up trolling. Good luck with that. I don't think anyone around here is naive enough to not see through your rage baiting.
Apartheid
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Genocide
Holocaust scholar to discuss his conclusion that Gaza campaign constitutes genocide
UN Expert Says Impunity for Israel Must End as 'Genocidal Violence' Spreads to West Bank
“A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza
800+ Legal Scholars Say Israel May Be Perpetrating 'Crime of Genocide' in Gaza
AP News, Time, Reuters, Vox, CBC
Neverending Violence
Genocide seems like a strange word to keep throwing around. According to Palestinian health officials 42,000 people died. And Palestinian's population is like 5 million.
42000 dead is awful. But it's less than 1% of 1% of the population. If Isreal is trying to eliminate all of them, it'll take 1000's of years at this rate.
You are ignoring a significant amount to rationalize this as not an act of genocide
It’s well-known what the Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said on 9th of October declaring a complete siege on Gaza, cutting off water, food, fuel, stating that “We’re fighting human animals,” and we will react “accordingly.” He also said that “We will eliminate everything.” We know that Israeli army spokesperson Daniel Hagari, for example, acknowledged wanton destruction and said explicitly, “The emphasis on damage and not on accuracy.” So we’re seeing the special intent on full display. And really, I have to say, if this is not special intent to commit genocide, I really don’t know what is.
So, when we look at the actions taken, the dropping of thousands and thousands of bombs in a couple of days, including phosphorus bombs, as we heard, on one of the most densely populated areas around the world, together with these proclamations of intent, this indeed constitutes genocidal killing, which is the first act, according to the convention, of genocide. And Israel, I must say, is also perpetrating act number two and three — that is, causing serious bodily or mental harm, and creating condition designed to bring about the destruction of the group by cutting off water, food, supply of energy, bombing hospitals, ordering the fast evictions of hospitals, which the World Health Organization has declared to be, quote, “a death sentence.” So, we’re seeing the combination of genocidal acts with special intent. This is indeed a textbook case of genocide.
- third source under Genocide
Euro-Med Monitor’s death count differs from that reported by the Gaza Ministry of Health — which currently stands at roughly 42,000 — as it accounts for reports by the human rights groups’ field team. But the true death toll is likely to be far, far higher; estimates from health experts have ranged from 100,000 to over 330,000, or about 15 percent of Gaza’s population.
In its over 100-page report, Euro-Med Monitor lays out some of the worst atrocities carried out by Israeli forces over the past year. It details the “systematic acts of genocide committed in Gaza, such as the targeted killing of civilians in homes, shelters, displacement camps, and humanitarian-declared zones,” and too many other examples to list.
Read the full report here
I mean you can down vote me, then throw a wall of text at me that no one is going to read. But it doesn't change the reality.
40 some thousand dead out of a population 5 million people. War is truly fucked up. We don't have to change the definition of Genocide to try and make a point. It makes the argument sound fake. Like you want to force a response for fiction.
If you looked at the report, you would see exactly how it fits the international definition of genocide. The point of these definitions is to prevent genocide before it gets to the kind of scale we have seen in the past.
So the definition of genocide was changed to prevent the old definition of genocide from happening.
So it is exactly what I was arguing. You just changed the meaning of the word to make your rhetoric sound worse than reality.
Honestly. No lie. This makes me wonder how else your group is changing the meaning of words to paint the picture you want people to see.
Speak plain truths, they are damning enough. Lies hurt your argument.
What are you talking about, the definition is clearly listed on page 17 of the linked report. Nothing has been changed, the point of recognizing a genocide is to stop it.
Let me be more clear?
You are lying and speaking propaganda. And it makes you untrustworthy.
When people sell things this hard, I know they are stupid or a liar. And I'm calling you a liar.
I gave you multiple resources, from different sources, that show how holocaust and genocide scholars consider this a genocide. You chose to not read them. I quoted relevant paragraphs that showed the analysis of one of those scholars and the much higher death toll. You chose to not read them. I gave an extremely detailed report by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor and even gave the exact page that describes, in detail, exactly how this genocide fits the definition given in international law. You also chose to not read that.
Then you say that I'm a liar? I'm done talking with you
Yep, you are selling propaganda that you don't believe. I believe you are a liar of the worst kind.
Your overdramatic morale outrage is as false as all your posts.
Israel abused a dog for years and now acts surprised that the dog bit them back. I don't support HAMAS or the government of Israel. Both countries have a right to coexist peacefully. Given the history of the Israel/Palestine debacle it is hardly surprising that a group promising to destroy Israel is/was popular with a group of people oppressed by Israel. Similarly, with the election of the current Israeli government who seem to be elected to eliminate HAMAS and protect settlements in the west bank.
Let me make something crystal clear. All lives have equal worth. On October 7th ~1,200 Israeli civilians were killed, since then >40,000 Palestinian civilians. Surely no cause is worth killing civilians over. How do you justify that Israel is the good guy?
On October 7th ~1,200 Israeli civilians were killed,
No. 1139 people were killed, 373 of which were military or security personnel. Nobody really talks about what exactly happened on October 7th anymore, but the idea that Hamas and other groups entered, killed a bunch of civilians and left does nothing but help Israel.
But the majority of people they killed were civilians. There is no good guy in this war, any attempt to simplify it to such terms is disingenuous at best.
But the majority of people they killed were civilians.
That gets us into the whole crossfire and Israeli friendly fire thing, but that's not really what I'm trying to say. I'm just trying to say that it's not as simple as "Hamas did a very bad thing to Israel"; a good part of October the 7th was resistance against Israeli occupation (and a good part wasn't, don't get me wrong, but I've noticed that this fact gets forgotten because Israeli actions deserve condemnation either way).
I'm confused what we're arguing about here, I simultaneously believe that Hamas did a bad thing to Israel and that Israel is doing a very very very bad thing (and has for a long time) to Palestine. I don't however, believe that Israel's response has been proportional, nor do I believe Israel are making any earnest attempts at a diplomatic solution. I also find it hard to see that genocide isn't their goal when they keep blowing up schools, hospitals, aid workers and journalists.
Referring to my original comment the acts on October 7 make perfect sense in the context the history of Israel and the attack on military targets can easily be justified as an act of war. I suppose what really irks me is that neither side is above targeting civilians
the attack on military targets can easily be justified as an act of war.
Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at. Not trying to defend the atrocities they committed (which are many), but at the start when they weren't as obviously committing genocide Israel was trying to paint itself as an unambiguous victim and one of their strategies was to claim all the dead as civilians and deny that the attack had any military goals, so I wanted to correct the 1200 civilians figure.
What conceivable quality do you like about them?
The facf they're not committing genocide right now?