this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2023

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147

In a shock for Europe, anti-Islam populist Geert Wilders records a massive win in Dutch elections (apnews.com)

submitted 10 months ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world

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[–] doublejay1999@lemmy.world 44 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It’s not even mildly surprising, to anyone paying attention and given free media attention given to what were once fringe views.

[+] Zippy@lemmy.world -39 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I think though you are also getting a backlash throughout the world in that this white glove woke treatment of Islam that suggest they do not need to rein in the fringe extreme elements within their faith is acceptable is becoming unacceptable. That they are not collectively responsible for the actions of the those that take their faith too literal wears thin. It is akin to the pressures put on the Catholic religion that was expected to clean up their sins of which were far smaller in size. That was expected and maybe it should be expected that the group as a whole becomes responsible

The result is that we are starting to see majority of people begin to say you need to actively denounce and more so, take steps to remove those of your faith that engage in violent methods otherwise we will collectively group you together and effectively punish you. And while maybe this is a hard pill to swallow, that might be the only effective way to change human nature on a large scale.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 37 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Oh hey, look everybody another person over generalizing that thinks an entire group of people is responsible for what a few people do.

[–] chakan2@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

few people do.

It's not a few...

The majority simply hold views that aren't compatible with western modern views. Being gay is a sin, women's rights aren't valued, etc.

An excellent example of this is Draw Muhammad day.

Here's some fun reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_and_Islam

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

It's no different than Christianity, except they don't believe Jesus was the son of God. The people following the religion are just as varied as Christians. Some people are fundamentalists, while others are extremely liberal, and consider themselves merely spiritual and call themselves christians.

[–] chakan2@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I think Christianity is the same backwards blight on humanity as Islam. They're equal in their hatred of the 'others'.

And it's really the same problem...it's not 'some' Christians that hate progressive values...it's 'most'.

For the love of fucking God, we just outlawed abortion.

So don't pretend any of the ultra religious are good for us as a people.

[–] Globulart@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It's an interesting one this. My wife's mum is Iranian and my brother in law is Pakistani and I've heard (so take this with a metric tonne of salt) that families that emmigrated from middle Eastern cultures are often much more strict that those who didn't.

This is simply because the community in the country the emmigrated to is much smaller and more isolated so doesnt allow views to slowly shift as easily as in a large group where you can more easily find like minded people if there's a point you don't agree with.

But like I said, I've only heard this so maybe it's bs, I've never visited either country myself so it's literally just another's opinion. But I found it interesting and it made me think a bit more about how hard it must be to feel like you belong in a country different than your origin. Obviously we (the west, generally speaking) have the benefit of seeing comfortable Christians in comfortable situations who are able to more easily challenge the traditional beliefs, but I wonder whether a typical Christian family who emmigrated to a non Christian country a generation or more ago would be more strict as a rule.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The majority of people in the Netherlands aren't religious, though. The same goes for some other European countries.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I wasn't really making a statement on the article so much as the specific comment I responded to.

[–] Windex007@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

That's not at all what they said.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

That was expected and maybe it should be expected that the group as a whole becomes responsible

Directly quoting ~~you~~ them from ~~your~~ their previous comment.

[–] Windex007@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

In the larger context, it appears to me that the author is arguing that when there are bad faith actors in a larger group, it becomes the responsibility of the larger group to denounce the actions of the fringe.

It is not the same as saying the whole is responsible for the actions of the few.

This isn't a novel idea in our society.

-We expect all Catholics to denounce the actions of pedophile priests, and if they don't, we do view them as part of a systemic problem

-We expect all white people to denounce racist behaviour when other white people do it, and if they don't, we do view them as part of a systemic problem

-We expect all men to denounce mysogonistic and sexually predatory behaviour when they see other men do it, and if they don't, we see them as part of a systemic problem

If I were to take any issue with the original post, it seems to imply that the broader community IS silent on extremism. I don't think that this is actually true. I think that the media systemically dampens the voices of Muslim people, EXCEPT when they have extremist sound bytes, which causes an incorrect perception of the general Muslim sentiment.

So, that is where the error is.

NOT with the idea that it's the responsibility of anyone in any group to call out bad behaviour within their group... But that they don't appear to believe that it is happening.

[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

We don't expect all Catholics to do that. No. In fact, we don't care if they do that. Denouncing. A simple verbal response means nothing. We expect them to take action to stop what's going on. And make effort to keep it from happening again. I don't care if they denounce it ever. As long as they take steps to make sure it doesn't happen.

It's nice to have people denounce racist behavior. But what would be nicer is if people simply just didn't tolerate racist behavior and didn't associate with people who behave in a bigoted or racist fashion. I don't care if they denounce it. So many people do that and then never make any steps towards distancing themselves from it. Actions speak louder than words.

And again no we don't expect all men to denounce mysogyny, etc etc etc. We expect people on the whole not to support it and not to further it.

If you are in a room with a pedophile, a racist, or a misogynist. People will generally laud you for coming to the victims defense. No doubt. But if you had nothing to do with it. Don't share the the offending viewpoints of the offender. Never have made any actions to give anyone any indication that you might. You don't need to say anything. And pretending that people do is pretending that the whole group is responsible for it when they aren't. That would be like saying all conservatives everywhere need to. Constantly apologize for the thousands of people murdered at the hands of far-right extremist constantly there. I think that they should take some culpability from it and perhaps work to change their culture a little bit. But I don't expect or want them to apologize for it necessarily. I would rather they actually take action to keep it from happening.

[–] Windex007@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Awesome, so you're taking an even STRONGER stance on the responsibility of everyone in those communities.

The author of the original post, by my read, was suggesting that same responsibility should exist in the Muslim community.

[–] Globulart@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Yeah it's funny that this reads as argumentative when it actually goes even further in supporting the point they replied to.

[–] toastus@feddit.de 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Bullshit Apples and bullshit Oranges.

Mild pressure is put on the catholic church as an organization (!) to stop actively aiding the still ongoing mass rape of children over multiple continents through their clergy.

That is not even close to the same as expecting all people of Muslim believe to denounce things that completely independent people do that just so happen to also be Muslim.

And don't get me wrong, Islam might be even more stupid and archaic than Christianity, but your argument just doesn't hold water at all.
I would go so far as to say that it is likely that this very argument was conceived as a racist fig leaf to have some reasonable sounding argument to not like brown people.
Not that this is necessarily your motivation, but you just publicly repeated it.

[+] spacecadet@lemm.ee -18 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Being concerned about Muslim extremeism != racism. You’re the reason people like geert are winning. People are tired of bad faith arguments with the left in which common sense is called racism.

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 15 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Common sense is not boiling hundreds of years worth of geopolitics into a single talking point and acting like you've somehow solved all problems in an area if we just somehow did this one thing.

In fact, the extremism you are talking about is largely due to foreign countries destabilizing regions around the world that happen to be majority Muslim countries.

You'd respond the same way if a handful of countries showed up at your doorstep, set up military bases, bombed your neighbors, friends, and family, and then toppled your government causing wide spread famine, inflation, and collapse of your economy.

Honestly, how could you not end up hating someone for doing that?

[–] Alto@kbin.social 4 points 10 months ago

Bombing them will work this time for sure!

[–] spacecadet@lemm.ee -3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The lack of self awareness is hilarious. You are literally proving my point. “Everyone who doesn’t agree with my extremely ideology is a racist”

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You just like have absolutely zero critical thinking skills don't you...

[–] spacecadet@lemm.ee -1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

And you have the reading comprehension of a pre-schooler don’t you…

[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

Nope, just wondering how you still can't see that an entire generation of people become radicalized when you carpet bomb their nation and topple their government.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago

You’re the reason people like geert are winning.

Says the apologist repeating some of the rhetoric Wilders and his voters use to try and convince non-islamophobes to vote and behave like islamophobes.

[–] toastus@feddit.de 10 points 10 months ago

You’re the reason people like geert are winning.

No I am not and right wing nuts blaming the left for even more extreme right wing nuts is just an obvious lie.

The empirically proven truth is though, that people like Wilders, LePen, Farage, Trump, Höcke etc. are successful because their inflammatory racist rhetoric gets echoed by stupid "centrists" that care more about fighting the left than the right.

People like you.

But I understand that it feels much better for you to blame lefty people that you don't like anyway.

[–] Vincent@kbin.social 9 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Almost nobody thinks this win is the result of fringe extreme elements within Islam. It has more to do with lack of housing, inflation, etc.

[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 1 points 10 months ago

And also with isolation.

[–] RecursiveParadox@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago

..created by, come on, say it with me: the fucking VVD who a couple of hours ago "washed their hands of it."

It's an urban / rural divide the VVD exploited for years, privatizing everything so that your town has one bus that maybe runs once an hour, of course you're pissed. And probably are ok with blaming people with different color skin for it instead of the conservatives who did this to you.

[–] xc2215x@lemmy.world 18 points 10 months ago

More of these leaders around the world are winning. Look at Argentina.

[–] AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Well when politicians ignore the concerns of the people, the people will elect anyone who seems to hear them.

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl 1 points 10 months ago

The people will elect anyone who is best at pretending to hear them while offering only overly simplistic solutions to complex problems. Wilders, like Trump, is surrounded by incompetent buffoons.

[–] BeautifulMind@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wilders is another Putin stooge capitalizing on how shitty everything is with immigrants and all that

When you think about that even a little bit, Putin is responsible for a solid amount of the immigration crisis that has Europeans feeling like there's too many immigrants (Syria, Ukraine, etc) and the answer must be less democracy and fewer human rights protections because if refugees don't have human rights they don't matter, right?

It's a bit like how the GOP uses its power to make life objectively worse for people in general, and then turns around and argues that it's proof that democracy doesn't work.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Wilders is an Zionist peon not a Russian one. He is hardlining to send more bombs to israel to bomb Arabs with.

He lived as a Colonist in the west bank for two years when he was 17 and ate up all the propaganda about Arabs.

[–] labsin@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Why can't he be both? Wasn't it uncovered he got financial support from American Christian conservative and Russia?

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago

It could be both, Russia benefits from any western country going right wing. But he is israel's OG bitch. Geert Wilders had gone to israel at least 40 times in the last 25 years. All his talking points are Zionist stuff and he preaches about how amazing israel is in parliament. If he gets American Christian money it's likely just a Zionist slush fund.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 4 points 10 months ago

Syria, Libya, Yemen, Ethiopia, Somalia, etc etc

Millions dead. Almost 40 million forcibly displaced.

And this is what you get. .

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This is really interesting and I don't have a definitive answer as to why -- while Europe is experiencing a series of far right victories, the US electorate is rejecting the far right. Trumpists and opponents of abortion rights have generally been losing by significant margin, in off election years no less.

What do you guys think is the cause? Part of me wonders if Trump was so bad that the collective American electorate is firmly sick of far right shit. And overturning Roe just further emphasized that and went way too far. In effect, the American right has pushed so extreme that it's created a powerful whiplash effect.

Another thought is the subject matter -- immigration and Muslim refugees aren't really a big deal here. We're a nation of immigrants, and that makes us naturally more left on the subject, maybe?

[–] mayonaise_met@feddit.nl 1 points 10 months ago

Geert Wilders' party is the largest party, but that doesn't mean the majority voted for him. I would say generally 25 out of 150 seats go to parties like Wilders' party.

This time a lot of people voted Wilders as a protest vote (37 seats in total), but I expect a lot of the votes to return to the center-right party during the next elections.

People are fed up with a lot of mismanagement in our government, but they punish center-right coalitions by voting even further on the right while blaming the left (even though most of the left hasn't ever been part of the government coalition).

I bet that if you take away the housing and cost of living crises, people wouldn't be taking about immigration so much. It would help tremendously if the government wouldn't mismanage the asylum procedures as much as it does.

[–] return2ozma@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago

Trumpers don't realize there's more to vote for than just POTUS.

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 3 points 10 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — Anti-Islam populist Geert Wilders won a huge victory in Dutch elections, according to a near complete count of the vote early Thursday, in a stunning lurch to the far right for a nation once famed as a beacon of tolerance.

Political parties were set to hold separate meetings Thursday to discuss the outcome before what is likely to be an arduous process of forming a new governing coalition begins Friday.

Wilders’ election program included calls for a referendum on the Netherlands leaving the European Union, a total halt to accepting asylum-seekers and migrant pushbacks at Dutch borders.

The historic victory came one year after the win of Italian Premier Giorgia Meloni, whose Brothers of Italy’s roots were steeped in nostalgia for fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who boasts of turning Hungary into an “illiberal” state and has similarly harsh stances on migration and EU institutions, was quick to congratulate Wilders.

The election was called after the fourth and final coalition of outgoing Prime Minister Mark Rutte resigned in July after failing to agree to measures to rein-in migration.

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