A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy π
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
Not that I know of. Let smaller automakers make EVs and we might get something like that.
But with the federal government mandating that all cars must have automatic braking after a certain date in the future I guess we're never going to get away from tons of sensors and computers in cars.
Automatic braking doesn't require the level of tech that's being packed into EVs these days
You could make automatic breaking without a full blown computer, but it's so much cheaper to put a full-blown computer than it is to do it all in hardware. Everything uses turing complete equipment now, it's actually less expensive at this point.
There's absolutely no reason not to put multiple computers in the car I think the real win is not surfacing it to the end user.
"Tech" is a conflated term. The way I read OP is that they don't want their cars main user interface to be a smartphone app. Doesn't mean the car can't be technologically advanced.
Exactly. If my car can connect to the internet then it has too much tech in it.
I mean, the government has mandated that all cars built since the 90s have to have a lot of computers and sensors for engine monitoring and emissions logging so that ship has long since sailed. Automatic braking is also credited with eliminating something like 1 in 5 fatalities in car accidents, so as long as we have any motorized vehicles around at all I donβt really have a problem with the government requiring manufacturers to spend the extra 20 dollars or so per vehicle it costs them to add a few ultrasonic sensors and a microcontroller it takes to slow the vehicle to the point where a driving into a pedestrian might just be survivable.
They also mandate a backup camera, so that means they need to have a screen.
I assumed from your title that you, like myself, are more concerned about the fact that EVs all seem to be "smart", and cloud connected, and effectively hardware as a service to spy on you, and prevent repairs, and have software lockouts of features.
Like TVs, I think there's no incentive for the companies with the ability to make dumb devices to actually make them. Adding all this functionality is unfortunately what people expect.
all seem to be "smart", and cloud connected, and effectively hardware as a service to spy on you, and prevent repairs, and have software lockouts of
This is happening with gas cars too. I was driving an Infiniti rental car and every time I started it, the infotainment system showed a disclaimer about Infiniti collecting and using data. There was a way of opting out of just some of the data collection, but no way of opting out of all of it.
That and safety and I genuinely don't care for bells and whistles, as they add to the cost unnecessarily. Whenever I needed a new car, I never bought new, I always bought second hand and made sure it's the "lowest trim" of the model. So much cheaper for the same car. I come from a 3rd world country and am used to cars that just drive with no other purposes. So, why not save my money and also be safe, you know?
I mean, I think EV needs to be separated from the fancy systems here. I see ICE vehicles with fancy touchscreens with no buttons, they aren't an EV specific thing.
As for me, I have the Hyundai Kona EV, I love the thing. Yes, it has screens, I think they're neat, but specifically it has physical buttons below the screens to control the entire car with physical buttons. That was a hard requirement of mine. So, if you want no screens or anything then no, unless you buy the cheapest car out there right now you're probably getting something "smart", and those happen to be ICE cars because at this point they're cheaper. If your actual issue is physical buttons, then sounds like you need to go actually test drive some. The only EV I know of with no buttons is a Tesla, and there are a ton of other EVs out there.
Chevy Bolt EV and EUV have buttons for everything you need to do while driving. It does have android auto/apple carplay but you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
I think you're conflating a couple of different things here.
just have a Bluetooth radio and thatβs it
and
I like to have actual buttons
These are two separate issues. The former, in my view, deals largely with what is seen as an extraneous or even potentially unwanted set of features. Especially in so much as cars are quite famously some of the worst devices people own in terms of keeping their data private and secure. Better to have a car that doesn't collect that data in the first place, and just sticks to being a car that goes vroom. Or whirrrrr, as the case may be with an EV. But there are advantages to the more advanced features too. Navigation, lane assist, adaptive cruise control, etc. Whether you want the features or not is an entirely personal decision.
But this is not the same as the question of how you interface with the car. Yes, more advanced features are probably going to require a more complicated UI, maybe including a touch screen, though centre console knobs can achieve the same.
But the core of this criticism, I think, is about whether you can keep your eyes on the road while driving. And that means that you should be able to do the core things related to driving: steer, accelerate, brake, indicate, turn on/off lights (including high beam), and adjust wiper settings all from the steering wheel. And secondary but important frequently-accessed settings like AC temperature, radio volume, radio channel/mode, and turning on/off cruise control should be doable using physical knobs and buttons, though these may be located in the centre console. The important thing here is that even if some more advanced features do exist to be interacted with via touch screen, they don't have to mean (and shouldn't mean) the important driving-critical features are only available via a dangerous touch screen.
Further, in terms of safety, having a large display built into your dash showing you navigation is much better than a small device you jerryrig onto a vent or something. It's easier to see via your peripheral vision, and won't put you in a situation where you need to go find it off of the floor when it falls off.
Check out the Skoda CitiGo. 36.4kWh of small car goodness without any screens or updates. Just Bluetooth. Navigation is provided using your phone in the factory mount or a TomTom. Itβs basically a scaled down e-Up with analog switches.
Or the Seat Mii Electric, it's even slightly more bare bones than the Citigo-e. Basically the VW group decided that instead of one car with three trim levels, they spread them under three different badges.
Though the dashboard is basically identical in each one (even the e-up) and what's missing are parking sensors, cruise control, steering wheel buttons and stuff like that, so all of them fit the "not a smartphone on wheels" requirement.
If your hate only goes towards touchscreens and not having physical buttons, Mazda is (or at least was) very anti-touchscreen. I haven't done any research on their current stance or if they have good EVs, but a neighbor of mine was really happy with his Mazda ICE car for having a button for everything.
I have a Mazda (not an EV) and am loyal to the brand because of their dial system. The dial makes it so easy to navigate menus without taking my eyes off the road for long
2024 Mazdas have touchscreens, so much for that analog vision of theirs. And they have just as much telematics and always-connected privacy-invading tech as other makes.
I hope so at some point. Drove a friend's tesla and fuck that thing, even the speedometer was on the fucking center tablet... Fuckin why? I don't want to hunt for my current speed in the bloated infotainment bs.
Preech. It's literally a tablet on wheels and it sucks
My MY21 Hyundai Kona feels like a normal car without all those extra features. Lots of tactile buttons, there's a headphone jack/USB. It's really just a regular car with an EV engine.
You might want to look into taking an older car and paying to get someone to install a conversion kit. If you have an existing car you could see if there's a compatible kit that'll save you some money.
From what I've seen, conversions are generally preferred on pre OBD cars, as even the accessories like lights, AC etc run through that.
It puts you back looking at vehicles from the 70s or earlier. VW beetles, combis,Porsches seem to be popular choices.
I got a 2022 Hyundai Kona EV. It does have a touch screen, but most functions can be done with buttons, except for navigation. It does have Android auto, but you don't have to use it. It has an aux port or Bluetooth audio as an option
eBikes
While an amazing option for city commutes, mine is close to 100km daily. I have no idea if it's possible to use an e-bike for that, but it would certainly take up even more of my limited free time to do so.
Probably not available where you are but there are lots of Chinese options that are exactly this.
Any examples? I live in China and even the worst shoebox on wheels has a touch screen and built-in always online capabilities.
Some names would be appreciated
Mitsubishi has been selling one for nearly a decade. Itβs not great.
Toyota has a Corolla hybrid that seems pretty close.
The issue is that why would they build a budget EV when they can sell an expensive, high margin, EV? The batteries are low supply, high demand so they should be wringing every dollar possible from it.
Things where federal and California regulations step in and force these vehicles into market.
I mean, gasoline-powered cars are headed the same way. manufacturers realize they can make more money by forcing us to pay for software.
I know that Edison motors up in Canada makes conversion kits so you can turn your pickup truck or 18 wheeler into a hybrid. I'm sure there are people out there putting electric motors in regular cars, I've seen them do it with Porsches and mustangs
My 2017 Chevy Bolt is fully electric and has less fancy integrations than most cars sold today. It's got Bluetooth and aux audio in but you have to connect a phone with a cable for Car Play or Android Auto, it's got normal buttons and switches for all the car stuff too. It had a remote start until I ran out of free On Star months.
Seeing how OP hasn't replied to any comments, I'm starting to wonder if they're just anti-EV and trying to stir the pot. I test drove the newer bolt, the leaf, and a few others, it's clear OP hasn't really done much research if that's an actual complaint they have, most are as you said. They range from basic to super fancy.
Depends on where you are. In Europe some of the cars that have a shared platform---as in you can get an ICE or EV on the same model---are worth looking at. A bunch of the Stellantis-built stuff, like Peugeot or Vauxhall, are pretty "standard car, but EV". Similarly Renault has some good options.
You should probably mention your jurisdiction ,but I'm in EU and have a Dacia , pretty goood lack of stupid/unnecessary features and the console is mostly optional to use. Physical buttons for important stuff and music/calls. Mine is a LPG/gasoline hybrid but most is similar to the EV models.
Least bad in Mozillas privacy review as well. Plenty of electronics still ofc it is needed in any car today EV or not.
Had a 1998 Citroen Electrique once. Not much fancy electronics there..
The entertainment system in most cars are separate from the actual car computer. You can just turn it off, or only use the radio. I think it's only Tesla where it's necessary to use the screen in order to operate the car.
EVs however is one place where it makes some sense to have some software connection to the car, if you want to time the charging to the electricity price or set a tine to preheat and such, that'd be difficult to make with physical buttons. I'd prefer just to have an simple app for it, because I really dislike the proprietary software in the cars.
I don't think you can easily find new thermal cars without technology, so EVs
If you have an old truck, Edison Motors has preorders for the Pickup Truck conversions. The kit will only have the drive train stuff in it and anything else is not something they're interested in. They are working with autoshops to do the conversions, so it's not a DIY thing.
So let's be very clear here. This is basically true for any new car, practically no 'normal car' has come out (in the US) for the past few years. The amount of feature creep has been massive, some due to regulations, some because adding it is cheap. The only place where you can get relatively bare bones is in pick ups. Not in suv's. Cars except sportscars are no longer being offered, only two 'normal' models (accord and camry) still exist. These all have driver assist tech and large screens as well. You won't be able to get around features hiding behind touch screens, simply impossible to find in today's market.
The problem for Evs is that beyond styling the only differentiating factor is tech. They are all fast and differ not that much in range, speed, comfort, handling in their price ranges. This has pushed tech into the car industry, especially in the US where people are willing to go into debt for cars, to the point where the average price for a new car is 47k. Compared to eu: 27k
In principle, the less you pay the less tech you get. But for any new car, there is tech. No way around it anymore. You can buy the car and ignore it.
All new cars have infotainment systems and computerized controls and displays these days. This is in no way specific to EVs. In Europe there is the Dacia Spring. That's a very simple and down to the absolute essentials kind of vehicle. But not something I would ever want to drive.
I think we need a car that "weeds out" all the shitty tech that has been integrated and comes "standard" now.
Let's take my partner's 2021 Honda Civic for example.
Lane Keep Assist (LKAS) - it's garbage. The car does not recognize construction zones, and it will actively fight you if you are in those zones, or if you have to make an emergency lane change without signaling, like if a deer, or child runs in front of your car. We turned this feature off.
Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) - This system legit tries to wreck the car. We've had it flag and even slam the brakes dozens of times in non-emergency scenarios. It was so bad we took it back to the dealer to have the software updated (which changed nothing) and considered returning the car. The system has to be manually disabled every time we drive the car, we cannot permanently disable it. Slamming your brakes at highway speeds when someone makes a close merge is a real good way to wreck your car and the 6 or so behind you. The risk of causing 12+ accidents to avoid or mitigate 0 is not worthwhile, and it needs to go.
Adaptive Cruise Control - A great way to make idiots fall asleep, and causes left lane lollygagging. I tried using adaptive cruise control for a few long trips, and what I noticed is that there are long lines of cars driving 4 under where they are all using ACC. When the car automatically adjusts it's speed, you lose feedback on the speed you are actually going, because you never get into that "decision zone" behind a car where you either slow down, or pass the other car. It also makes people feel more confident to let the car drive, so they'll fuck around on their phones. Get rid of it, you'll get where you're going faster and safer if you do.
Auto Dimming Headlights - Turns on by accident all the time, and very hard to turn off. Works ~50% of the time. Could be good, but really sucks right now.
Here are some features that rock, and should stay in.
Keyless entry
Remote start and push button start
Apple / Android phone integration
Brake hold
Backup camera
Thanks for attending my rant.
My Hyundai Ioniq 5 has ample physical buttons on the center console, steering wheel, and door, and a physical door handle that Teslas lack. Sure there is a touch screen (smaller than industry average), but I don't frequently use it, the buttons outside the screen are enough.
I have a 2016 Nissan Leaf. It's a short range commuter car, it makes a great second car for a family but it's no good if it's your only car.
I live in a left-hand drive country that gets heaps of used imports from Japan (who is also left-hand drive), so they are cheapish and easy to get YMMV,. The entertainment system is not touch screen, it has physical buttons including controls on the steering wheel. I'm not sure if it can phone home since it's no longer in a supported country. We use Bluetooth for music and that's it as the Nissan Connect stuff doesn't work here.
