No Stupid Questions

I don't think it's an "or" situation. They are both.

Maybe I'm missing some nuance of the word but if they believe the stuff because they are gullible... isn't that what makes them the victim?

The gullible often become victims. I don't understand the distinction you're making. Between personal failing and societal failing? They feed into each other. Both warrant correction.

It happens with liberals, too. Having said that, people really do need to go outside, get away from the 24/7 media feed, talk to actual people, and apply some critical thinking on their own. None of us is the main character.

I'd put them on the same level of victimhood as followers of people like Charles Manson. They probably wouldn't have done what they did without his influence but they're still culpable for the damage they've caused.

People should grow up and take responsibility for their lives.

That's the main thing.

A grown up, responsible person can have opinions, and can change their opinions.

A grown up, responsible person can spend their day as they want, and can also understand that it is probably unhealthy to watch news a whole day long.

A grown up, responsible person can utter a rant when it feels neccessary, and can also apologize afterwards if someone got hurt from it.

Or are they bigots looking for confirmation bias?

I think the "people are free to believe what they want to believe" is a mistake. This is the very statement that relativitises opinions and belief systems with facts and creates the illusion that they are all equal.

Look at the "facts don't care about feelings" crowd that believe wholeheartedly that statements pandering to their feelings are facts and disregard any actual facts as fake news. I don't think it's because they decided one day to pick and choose what is a fact and what is not, but they actually can't tell that there is a difference in opinions, beliefs and facts in the first place.

People need to accept that sometimes the truth is painful, that it contradicts what you want it to be, and worst of all - that you may have been wrong.

Edit: that said, I think people are free to believe whatever they want to believe when it comes to unprovable existential esoterica like personal values, afterlife, religion, whatever. As long they accept it is a personal belief and not an universal truth.

Does their gullibility somehow diminish their victimhood? Gullible doesn't mean they're malicious, it just means they're easily misled. If anything, if they're "just gullible" we should be even less hostile towards them, and more towards the propaganda machine (because it is) that's feeding them their misinformation.

Being abnormally gullible can be a symptom of some types of mental health issues. Extremely gullible people, especially, deserve compassion.

"willing victimhood" is certainly a thing.

Tldr "In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence"

Blame is not a finite resource. Just because 2 people are involved doesn't mean they're both 50% to blame — they can both be 100% at fault.

So to answer your question, the person is responsible for their onerous views. They chose to watch that trash and believe it. We can have compassion for them without absolving them of blame. At the same time, they are a victim of the people lying to them. So it's fine to blame the person consuming the bullshit and the person producing the bullshit, and the fact that there are 2 people to blame doesn't make either of them any less to blame.

Don't know that I'd characterize it as being "victims", their media outlets have chosen to fuel anxiety and anger that was already there.

The media is culpable for pouring fuel on the fire, but the fire was already there. They are emboldened to be loud since they find such loud agreement from media and online, but they already were thinking the same basic things.

Think that anyone who would find that stuff compelling is not in a good place emotionally or mentally. Now, ideally they should be pulled out of that, and you do occasionally hear stories about people leaving extremist groups like Qanon because they found a healthy hobby or community. On the other hand, I don't think humans can really be separated cleanly between victim and victimizer, and the people this questions describing often become a danger to other people.

Why would you think they all do it for the same reason?

there a victim as not everyone is the same and there's always unknown mental disorders some people have or exposed to lead that fucked there brain up, poor childhood, other reasons.

People are not born evil. Nobody just is born and wants others to die. All of it is a learned trait and often times from these organizations is how these evil things spread.

They are gullible because there a victim of The propaganda and what they learned (usually by force without consent) growing up.

Saying people are dumb or need to "grow up" just is another way to put it into aggressive "us vs them" mindsets.

Nobody is born to be evil or cruel. No body. It is learned behavior and we should destroy the organization and practices that create these behaviors regardless of what political side there on. (Although conservative ones have the absolute worst ones though)

discussions like this always bring me back to the Dead Kennedy's song Stars and Stripes of Corruption

Not only is the music one of their greatest, but the lyrics are Jello Biafra's best. If you have never heard it, imagine surf guitar, fast pace and a poet that can unleash lyrics at bullet speeds while staying in tone and driving the beat. The end of their career finale and IMO their magnum opus. The lyrics are just so good. Here is one part that I really think about alot...

But what can just one of us do

Against all that money and power trying to crush us into roaches?

We won't destroy society in a day

Until we change ourselves first from the inside out

We can start by not lying so much and treating other people like dirt

It's so easy not to base our lives on how much we can scam

And you know it feels good to lift that monkey off our back

People affected by confirmation bias are NEVER VICTIMS.

They are falling for engagement strategies all news media outlets use. They will say things that pander to a specific group pointing the finger at the other side so you'll stuck with their station. Both liberal and conservative sites do this. Journalism is dead

"If somebody spends the whole day watching fox or religious propaganda, gets worked up and all he can think of is owning a liberal or converting an unbeliever, is this person a victim or just gullible?"

Neither. Such folks (Along with their "enemies" on the opposite end of the sociocultural continuum, who get all of their intell from The Daily Show and Vox)are case studies in the willfull devolution of modern humans. The sooner all of them guzzle down a gallon of Draino each, the saner this planet will be

They aren't victims, but they wish they were. They're awful people who want to be openly awful to others to feel better about themselves, and fox "news" lets them indulge their awful impulses and emboldens them to be the awful people they want to be. Then when they get confronted for being awful, they play the victim instead of learning to live and let live.

Obviously this isn't true of all fox viewers or religious people, but I have been thinking about this lately as our new dynamic. It's not supposedly about the best way to help people anymore (and what we can/can't or should/shouldn't do), it's now one side that still supposedly wants to help people and one that has given up the pretense entirely and only stands for cruelty.

They're a gullible victim.

Stupidity is a moral flaw, not an intellectual one.

Why can’t they keep their opinions to themselves?

Freedom of speech?

"Why don't you keep your non cis het stuff to yourself" is something I hear often from that side. We should be better than that

Im athiest but I have no issue with conversation as long as its polite. I would regularly discuss christianity with a nice old lady who was a jehovas witness. she handed out slips but was not pushy or rude. I would discuss and even said I would for the sake of conversation assume the bible is real. She took my views in stride that you would think would upset someone from such a fundamentalist faith. If people did not want to talk to her though she did not bother them or such.