this post was submitted on 24 Apr 2024

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Ukraine pressures military age men abroad by suspending their consular services | CNN (edition.cnn.com)

submitted 7 months ago by jeena@jemmy.jeena.net to c/world@lemmy.world

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[–] ABCDE@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Well that's awful.

[–] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 37 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I feel very torn over this. On one hand, I completely understand the desire not to die in a fucking war. I certainly wouldn't want to either.

On the other, who if not the ukrainians can defend their homeland? The west can't even actively interfere without risking potential global repercussions neither side wants 💣🍄. I also think it is unfair that the men who could afford to leave get a pass, while the rest has to risk their lives.

[–] Beetschnapps@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Having your country torn in half over a foreign invasion is awful.

That’s worse…

[–] ABCDE@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I would be useless in a war, being forced to fight in something for a country you left for whatever reason seems unfair. I left my own in 2010 and rarely return, and have lived the vast majority of my adult life as a taxpayer in other countries.

[–] sandman@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 months ago

slava ukraini?

[+] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee -6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

“A man of conscription age went abroad, showed his state that he does not care about its survival, and then comes and wants to receive services from this state. It does not work this way. Our country is at war,” Kuleba said.

I think this sums it up well.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)

As a counterpoint, if you've emigrated and sought asylum in a foreign country is it fair to be denied access to criminal records and other bureauatic documents necessary to continue your life? One of my coworkers is Ukrainian and to pursue immigration they've had to go back and forth getting documentation that Canada requires for both residency and a work permit - to my knowledge they're fine since they're so far along in the process but a new asylum seeker may find themselves unable to provide this documentation.

War is messy business and not wanting to put your life on the line is understandable - after all nobody in this comment section is barred from volunteering to fight, or at least provide logistical support, in Ukraine if they're so motivated. Most of us are happy to financially support the war but wouldn't want to risk our lives.

[+] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee -15 points 7 months ago (2 children)

War is messy business and not wanting to put your life on the line is understandable - after all nobody in this comment section is barred from volunteering to fight, or at least provide logistical support, in Ukraine if they’re so motivated. Most of us are happy to financially support the war but wouldn’t want to risk our lives. Agreed. most the people wanting to send in troops should be the first to be sent in. I have no desire to fight for Ukraine but I don't mind supplying the weapons.

The issue is Ukraine needs manpower, and if you are an unreliable citizens, then what should be the consequences?

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 17 points 7 months ago (1 children)

As I said - it's fucking complicated. Do you owe your life because you were born somewhere? How long do you have to live there until you owe your life?

There are very valid concerns on both sides - I really hope that Russia is stopped in their tracks... but would you support an increased draft? Would you support it if your country was offering your life up involuntarily as part of an expeditionary force?

These aren't easy questions, at least in my opinion.

[+] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee -10 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I agree.

but would you support an increased draft?

I don't live there, so my opinion doesn't matter. I could say yes, but it isn't my ass going to the front line.

If America was invaded, yes, I would fight my country. Technically, I wouldn't fight as I am a medical officer in the Army, but you get my point.

Would I go overseas? I did previously but I am less inclined now. I would not want to go fight for Ukraine, this is their battle.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I was born in America and now am a Canadian citizen. I'm pretty doubtful I'd die for either country unless their motives closely aligned with my personal value. I do regret that you've been downvoted so severely, your general opinion and offer of self-sacrifice is certainly something I've genuinely seen in people before and I think it comes from a noble ideal.

The problem, IMO, is that this policy is far too broad and punishing. I much prefer the US approach here which has always been to offer ever increasing carrots - I'm less comfortable using the stick to increase service manpower.

[–] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee -5 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Welcome to the lemmy rage of downvoting just to downvote.

The US wasn’t always carrots. Draft dodging was taken pretty seriously in the past. Most people don’t realize we use to draft on a regular basis even when we were not at war. That’s how a lot of young men learned their job trade.

I get why prior avoided the Vietnam war. In my youth I would gave went. Now that I’m 50 I would have questioned the war heavily.

[–] ABCDE@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

You called people unreliable citizens for... Not wanting to die in a war created by those who will never serve in it. I don't want to fight nor die for arbitrary borders on the whim of whoever is in charge. Killing someone because you were forced to is disgusting.

[–] deafboy@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

There should not be any consequences! The governments should stop treating citizens like a lifestock.

[–] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

When you live in a country, there is an obligation to that country. You pay taxes, you fight in a war of self defense, etc.

[–] deafboy@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

That's a common misconception, but you are under no obligation to sacrifice your life for anyone without a prior consent.

If an organization tries to control your body or demands you to sacrifice your life, it's a dangerous cult. Run.

[–] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee -2 points 7 months ago

That’s a philosophical topic and not the law. Legally in America if you are called you must go. Otherwise you go to jail.