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402

More than 425 arrested as protesters defy ban on Palestine Action in London (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 2 days ago by Stamau123@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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More than 425 people have been arrested at the largest demonstration yet opposing the proscription of Palestine Action.

Defend Our Juries, who organised the demonstrations, said there were 1,500 sign-holders in Parliament Square on Saturday at a fresh protest in London against the ban. At the previous major demonstration last month, 532 people were arrested for taking part. Participants gathered in Parliament Square by 1pm, many holding signs that read: “I oppose genocide. I support Palestine Action.”

At just after 9pm, the Metropolitan police said it had made more than 425 arrests. The Met’s deputy assistant commissioner, Claire Smart, who led the operation, said: “In carrying out their duties today, our officers have been punched, kicked, spat on and had objects thrown at them by protesters. It is intolerable that those whose job it is to enforce the law and keep people safe – in this case arresting individuals committing offences under the Terrorism Act – should be subject to this level of abuse.”

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[–] OboTheHobo@ttrpg.network 22 points 1 day ago (2 children)

What's acts of terror has Palestine action committed for it to be classified as a terrorist organization?

[–] 9bananas@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

i mean...they DID trespass onto a military airport and messed with military aircraft.

that was what they did, that got them the designation "terrorist organization".

the planes were about to fly weapons down to israel, afaik, so i think they were doing something worthwhile, but, you know...bad idea regardless.

I don't agree that this makes them terrorists, i think that's some insane hyperbole on the governments side...but it does fit a very draconian definition of "terrorism": simply defined a "using force to achieve a political goal"

the entire thing is stupid. this is the stupidest timeline, after all...

[–] OboTheHobo@ttrpg.network 7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Sure they did something highly illegal, but anyone who thinks that illegally trying to stop a weapons shipment is terrorism is insane. If "using force to achieve a political goal" is terrorism, then nearly every country on the planet is a terrorist organization. Idk if thats like actually the UK's definition or something but that is a ludicrous definition for terrorism.

Terrorists use terror. Its why they are called that. Not the use of force, but specifically attempting to strike deep fear into a civilian populace. At no point was PA trying to make people fearful. They were trying to stop people from dying.

[–] 9bananas@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago

yeah, i entirely agree!

it's stupid and ridiculous!

[–] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com -5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

anyone who thinks that illegally trying to stop a weapons shipment is terrorism

I mean... The law of the UK defines what falls under terrorism. It does not matter what anyone thinks.

If a pro-Russian saboteur sabotages a weapon shipment to Ukraine, it will fall under the term, too.

If “using force to achieve a political goal” is terrorism, then nearly every country on the planet is a terrorist organization.

The term is usually not used to describe nations. It's to describe people or groups of people.

[–] OboTheHobo@ttrpg.network 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Then the UK's legal definition is fucking stupid. Terrorism is when a group attempts to strike fear and terror into a populace to coerce them. It definitionally requires violence and fear.

[–] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Terrorism is when a group attempts to strike fear and terror into a populace to coerce them

The Wikipedia article mentions different definitions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims.[1] The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants.[2] There are various different definitions of terrorism, with no universal agreement about it.[3][4][5] Different definitions of terrorism emphasize its randomness, its aim to instill fear, and its broader impact beyond its immediate victims.[1]

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 2 points 15 hours ago

None of those apply to what Palestine Action did though.

[+] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com -7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The wikipedia article goes into the details.

In May 2024, Edinburgh Palestine Action activists targeted a Leonardo factory in Crewe Toll, spraying red paint over the factory and fighter-jet models, as well as claiming to have sabotaged "internet cables", with a spokesperson for the group saying, "In the early hours of Tuesday 28th May [2024], a group opened the box of cables, cut the internet wires, sprayed expanding foam inside the box and spray painted 'Stop Arming Israel' on the lid." The action was carried out, against Leonardo, according to PA Scotland, for "continuing to arm the Israeli military with weapons". In January of the same year several activists occupied the roof of the same factory.[48]

Also:

The UK Ministry of Defence, and a defence expert,[68] said the particular aircraft spray-painted hadn't refuelled or supported Israeli air force jets.[69] The BBC reported that those two particular jets had not been used to support the Israeli air force, although they had been used in British air attacks in Yemen, Iraq and Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action#Legal_actions

[–] OboTheHobo@ttrpg.network 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So they vandalized some planes and snipped some cables? And this got them declared as terrorists?

I've noticed a pattern where "terrorist" is often used as a stand in for any group that opposes the government.

[–] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com -2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Well, that was one of their actions. I mean, it might be daily business for you.... But for me, getting access to fighter jets, sabotaging them and doing whatever else they did there does not sound like usual activity that some other organization would do. I have never head of someone from an LGBT organization seen sabotaging fighter jets... During BLM, there was also no organization sabotaging fighter jets or anything remotely similar to it.

for any group that opposes the government.

Organizing a protest on the streets is the base form of "opposing". Sabotaging stuff by breaking the law is for sure also "opposing", but I don't think, we should put that on the same level.

[–] frongt@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

And did any of those actions threaten or cause fear in the public?

[–] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com -1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Probably not, but is that even necessary? No, it is not.

Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims.[1] The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants.[2] There are various different definitions of terrorism, with no universal agreement about it.[3][4][5] Different definitions of terrorism emphasize its randomness, its aim to instill fear, and its broader impact beyond its immediate victims.[1]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

[–] frongt@lemmy.zip 4 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

Well the action was vandalism against two military planes, so that seems pretty well targeted against... Well, they're inanimate objects, so I wouldn't really describe it as violence, nor the planes as combatants or noncombatants themselves. So yeah it shouldn't be considered terrorism.

Unless you're a military plane contributing to genocide. I don't think any people in the UK are planes.

[–] OboTheHobo@ttrpg.network 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Im not saying what they did isn't illegal. I'm saying it's not terrorism. This is like if someone was charged with murder and punished for it only to turn out all they did was rob a store and you're like "well akshually ☝️🤓 they're a criminal so it's fine"

[–] lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com 1 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

I mean, it may not match how you use that word, because you might think about bin Laden when hearing that word "terrorism", but let's see how the word is actually defined:

Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims.[1] The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants.[2] There are various different definitions of terrorism, with no universal agreement about it.[3][4][5] Different definitions of terrorism emphasize its randomness, its aim to instill fear, and its broader impact beyond its immediate victims.[1]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

[–] OboTheHobo@ttrpg.network 4 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

So let's look at these requirements:

violence: not really. Vandalism and destruction of equipment aren't violence, to my knowledge PA has not harmed or attacked anyone.
non combatants: they targeted weapon shipments and military equipment. While I suppose you could argue the UK military aren't combatants as they aren't part of the war directly, but honestly that point is entirely moot given that they didn't target people.
political and ideological aims: sure, they are a political activist organization. Obviously that alone doesn't make them terrorists.

So, even by what Wikipedia defines as the "broadest" definition, not terrorists.

I mean, at an absolute minimum, terrorism requires violence against people, which they did not do. They targeted planes and other military equipment. That's not terrorism no matter how much damage they caused.