Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.

The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported.

[+] shoo@lemmy.world -6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The Poles asked for their troops back when they were forming a USSR-based army and were told that thousands had mysteriously escaped. Then when asked for an official investigation, the Soviets broke ties with the Polish government in exile and made their own.

The Soviets themselves later admitted it was the NKVD. Are you defending the USSR from its own slander?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 month ago (2 children)

You have no explanation for why the bullets were German and produced in 1941, why the rope was German, the method Nazi, and the originator of the story Goebbels. There's mountains of evidence against the documents listed as "proof" of Soviet guilt:

The mistakes and inconsistencies in this letter are many. To start, the letter is “Top Secret”. Standard procedure for a “Top Secret” letter were to write on the letter the name of the person who typed it, the names of all the persons who have seen the document, the names of all persons to whom this letter is to be sent, the number of copies made of this letter, the carbon paper used to make a copy of it and finally the tape of the typewriter used to make this paper. For the “Beria document”, none of these exist. Without these precautions, it is not a “Top Secret” letter. The forger of this document either was not aware of the requirements of a “Top Secret” paper, or such requirements could not be forged by them. Either way, this paper immediately looses its value, and furthermore shows it is a forgery.

But the mistakes do not stop here. The signatures of the members of the Politburo go against the form. In this letter, 4 members of the Politburo have simply signed their names. By this act, they have rejected the request of Beria. You see, if the members of the Politburo agreed to send out an order or to carry out a request, it was necessary for them to sign the document, and to write next to their signatures “agreed” or “after”. In order for the request to be agreed and the order to be sent out, the members had to express their agreement to the request or their agreement to an order being sent. If they simply signed the paper, it meant that the members had read the document, but had not agreed to it and had not sent out any orders. The forger was obviously not aware of this and has made the mistake. Even if this request is authentic, which it is not, it was not accepted by the Politburo.

On the first page of the document, along with the four signatures of Stalin, Molotov, Mikoyan and Voroshilov, the forger added the names of Kaganovich and Kalinin underneath these. What the forger was not aware of, is that both Kaganovich and Kalinin were absent from the 13th Session of the Politburo in March 1940. They could not have placed their signatures on this document.

Skip to the "forgeries" section.

[–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Thanks for your effortposting BTW. I might not agree with your every take but it's good work regardless!

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

No worries! And yea, I know we don't agree 100%, but I do think we overall agree more than disagree, at least from what I can tell. Personally, I'm often posting when my ADHD is pushing me away from responsibilities like work, chores, etc so it isn't always the best for me 🫠

Reached out to finally get organized IRL though, so I managed to overcome my procrastination and social anxiety enough for that!

[–] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

But I do think we overall more agree than disagree

Precisely; well put

Also I can relate somewhat with the impulses and procrastination (tho it's ASD for me LOL), but especially the anxiety and am glad you are able to work on improving in that regard :)

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago

Thanks! And from what I've gathered from my ASD friends, there's a lot in common between ASD and ADHD. They aren't the same, of course, and AuDHD is its own thing, but I've been able to relate especially well with those in my life with ASD ever since I was a kiddo.

Have a good one!

[–] shoo@lemmy.world -5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Per our other conversation, the Soviets were trading for German finished goods. Why would you not expect to find German goods here??

And again, the Soviets themselves admitted to it. Why are you even discussing forgeries?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

The ammunition was dated at 1941. Further, Soviet weaponry fired entirely different cartridges.

As for the Soviets "admitting it," it was the anti-communist factions that produced the "evidence," and said evidence directly contains serious flaws that other official documentation did not have. The origin of the story is with Goebbels. The post-Stalin CPSU was filled with those seeking to undermine the Soviet Union for political gain, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, and we also have evidence that Soviet officials falsified documents for political gain.

[+] shoo@lemmy.world -8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!

Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it's internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.

So let's put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There's no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

In order for the Soviets to have been guilty, it would have had to happen around 1939-1940. 1940 is the date Goebbels reported, and is accepted by those pinning it on the Soviets, because that would be when the Soviets most plausibly could have done it. Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition. The evidence in favor of the Nazis committing the Katyn Massacre are staggering, and the evidence provided by the anti-communist Yeltsin regime are flimsy at best.

Either way, putting it all aside, the Soviets did kill Polish soldiers that resisted them and/or cooperated with the Nazis, Slovak Republic, and OUN. They did not slaughter civilians like the Nazis did, certainly not children. There's absolutely fault to be found in excess, but if we just accept Geobbels' word for everything then that excess becomes parody and we remove ourselves from genuine analysis.

[+] shoo@lemmy.world -6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

1940 is the date Goebbels reported

All of these were verified by the Red Cross and there are stacks of documents giving evidence and testimony to the contrary. But yes, I suppose if you throw out everything you don't like then any argument will get flimsy. Certainly we don't get "genuine analysis" as you put it.

Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition.

The NKVD was a police force, they were under no compulsion to use military issue weapons. There are other documented instances of them using foreign weapons, it's not out of the ordinary.

This whole weapon discussion is circumstantial evidence at best, there are plenty of ways it could have happened. And of course Goebbels was eager to report it, it's very well documented in his own records that he was excited about the find and the bad PR it would give the Soviets. The fact that you're dismissing the general consensus that the international community has come to after decades of investigation just to maintain your own narrative is pretty disappointing.

America rightly draws criticism for their strong arm enforcement of "democratic values" through occupation, but you see no parallel to the USSR enforcing "Soviet values" through the same occupation strategy. You've got some massive blinders on.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago

So the evidence corroborating Goebbels supports the 1940 idea, despite Nazi ammunition dating 1941 was found, along with German rope, Nazi execution modus operandi, eyewitness reports corroborating that it was the Nazis that did it, and there's tons of discrepancies from the anti-communist Yeltsin-regime released documents. Sounds like more proof that the Nazis did it. All this is is you taking a declarative stance that you trust the Nazis and the Red Scare-era west against modern historical investigation.

As for the soviets, they tended towards 2 directions: 1, national sovereignty and self-determination, as well as 2, support for socialist movements. They weren't imperialist like the US is, so they didn't stand to gain from the same economic compulsions that drive the US to plunder the global south.