Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It's a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.

About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That's not how it works. There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves. You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.

I dont even know where to start explaining it to you, but for sure I don't have enough time. Let me just point out the faults in your reasonings:

Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there. They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not. They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn't have them they would still fight. They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.

America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That's the biggest strategic win America had in decades. But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it's a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn't create more problems later. And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it. That's not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media. That's coming from war analysts, economists. That's coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists. That's coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help

The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.

Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,.... I wouldnt want to be in that company.

[–] Maoo@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

So what you have is the same things all over again? Why are you doubling down on your own stupidity?

You said you forgot it, lol. It seems like you right now and you a few hours ago need to hash it out and determine whether you remember what I said.

Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It's a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.

Smartest commenter in the room isn't familiar with formal vs. informal fallacies and that the latter are part of basically all argumentation.

Do you think being inconsistent and hoodwinked by propaganda is cool and good? You seem to be a really big fan of it and call people names when they aren't on board.

About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That's not how it works.

It's not the same thing though. It was pointed out that the West didn't abide by Minsk II and your response was to say what about Russia though. No defense at all of what was accused, just switch focus to what your perceived opponent did. lol.

Sounds like you're not a fan of a perceived double standard! Fallacy! [Insult]!

There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves.

Go find some then! And pay attention to the dates! Also remind yourself of what I said about Russians in Donbas because you seem to have already forgotten it.

You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.

There's the US hegemony with its European clients that together call themselves "the west", lol. It's not like I made it up. I'm using terms most people will understand. Well except you, as you have a compulsion to piss on the carpet.

Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there.

Minsk II was negotiated with Western mediators who were themselves primary diplomatic contacts for enforcement and disputes. This is why Putin was talking to Macron and Merkel, lol. I'm sure you're aware of this, right? You seem exasperated by having to explain the basics to these tankies, right?

One should also understand that Ukraine is a very weak country that was subjected to Western meddling after Euromaidan. While there's much to be said of it, the easiest way for those for whom this is new information to get a quick handle on it is to listen to the recordings of Nuland. A good listen, especially when it's for the first time - but that couldn't be you!

They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not.

This paragraph doesn't address what I said at all. The point is that Ukraine is going to lose and sending more weapons rather than negotiating just stacks Ukrainian bodies (it is premised on falsehoods about Ukraine's ability to succeed). More people, including Ukrainians, die by propping up the illusion of eventual victory.

The actual reason that lie is spread is because of the real value to the West: attempting to hurt Russia. The position you're supporting is to trade Ukrainian dead for Russian dead. Bloodthirsty and callous. My position is to end it as soon as possible, i.e. fewer dead, including UA dead.

Now queue the pretzel logic of how escalations and avoiding diplomacy and lies of victory will somehow lead to fewer dead Ukrainians. How is that summer offensive going? Do you like the outcome of virtually zero progress on anything except dead Ukrainians and Russians? I don't.

They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn't have them they would still fight.

A Ukraine that wasn't getting this sham treatment would be negotiating.

They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.

Oh? Is a happy little world what I described?

America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That's the biggest strategic win America had in decades.

Oh, so one reason the war is being escalated so that the US can serve its own interests, including cycling weapons inventory? Some might say, the West?

You're almost there. Don't forget that the US couples this with new military contracts at home and debt in UA!

But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it's a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn't create more problems later.

Problems for themselves are the only ones they'd care about. There is no limit to the number of Slavic lives they'd sacrifice.

Though I do think I need to remind you that at no point have I suggested the only interest the US has is in sending weapons so it can feed its own MIC. I actually suggested several, even though I have no pretense of having listed an exhaustive set! See if you identify them! Here's a freebie: in my exact reply on this I pointed out that UA is taking on debts.

And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it.

Ahahahahahahahahaha

That's not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media.

What time is it in Moscow!? I'm sure this is a hit on Reddit.

That's coming from war analysts, economists.

People that are classically uninvolved in propaganda narratives and are usuallycorrect. Incidentally, both of those groups have people who think exactly the opposite thing as well. Can you imagine!?

Oh and btw since I know you love talking about fallacies: appeal to authority. I'd loooove to see you figure out how to read and analyze any media or experts at all without using it, lol.

That's coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists.

The tone of Russian propagandists hasn't really changed. It's almost boring.

That's coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help

Oh? Is that what happened? Please describe it without mentioning the cycling of old weapons stockpiles, since we agree on whose interests that benefits, right?

The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.

You think Nazi expansionism was just one crazy guy's idea? lol

Love to hear ahistorical Great Man Theory in condescensing lib posts.

Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,....

How are they my comrades?

So, anyways, you forgot to do the one thing you were asked to do. Tell me how our position is uninformed and devalues Ukrainian life. You did manage to call the ideas stupid but had facile or ignorant points every time, but I'll give you partial credit for trying.

[–] Flinch@hexbear.net 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

[–] Maoo@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago

lol you're probably right

[–] NoiseColor@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago

Im so sorry you feel excluded, but its really so painfully clear that you have nothing to offer lol.

[–] autismdragon@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

kim jon um

lol

ETA: Also gotta love the "they're looking to NORTH KOREA for help" as if this is an obviously and on its face evil bad terrible thing to do.

[–] NoiseColor@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You said you forgot it, lol. It seems like you right now and you a few hours ago need to hash it out and determine whether you remember what I said.

No, I said they are the same old debunked arguments and they are. Ive had this conversation before. It was the same, except your mental gymnastic routine is more awkward and cringe.

Smartest commenter in the room isn’t familiar with formal vs. informal fallacies and that the latter are part of basically all argumentation.

It doesnt matter what you call it, its irrelevant. Because america does it, does not excuse anyone else. Its still wrong and this is not a competition which country is the worst.

It’s not the same thing though. It was pointed out that the West didn’t abide by Minsk II and your response was to say what about Russia though. No defense at all of what was accused, just switch focus to what your perceived opponent did. lol.

You said it was the same. Its not. We are talking about the same situation. They are an involved party. Russia violated Minsk 2. They also violated dozens of other agreements that protected and aknowledged the borders of Ukraine. You dont care about that though.

Go find some then! And pay attention to the dates! Also remind yourself of what I said about Russians in Donbas because you seem to have already forgotten it.

Ive been this road before. There is no evidence possible that you wouldnt do cringey mental gymnastis around.

There’s the US hegemony with its European clients that together call themselves “the west”, lol. It’s not like I made it up. I’m using terms most people will understand. Well except you, as you have a compulsion to piss on the carpet.

Thats not what I wrote. You seem to be thinking that is a monolith entity. Its a naive thinking, like you know nothing about international relations.

Minsk II was negotiated with Western mediators who were themselves primary diplomatic contacts for enforcement and disputes. This is why Putin was talking to Macron and Merkel, lol. I’m sure you’re aware of this, right? You seem exasperated by having to explain the basics to these tankies, right?

So what? Who violated it and who violated all the other agreements? The idea that all would be fine if only Ukraine did nothing is laughable. Completely dissociated from reality.

One should also understand that Ukraine is a very weak country that was subjected to Western meddling after Euromaidan. While there’s much to be said of it, the easiest way for those for whom this is new information to get a quick handle on it is to listen to the recordings of Nuland. A good listen, especially when it’s for the first time - but that couldn’t be you!

Ukraine wanted what the west has. It didnt want what russia had. Russia has its own propaganda just like everyone else. If you read some books about russian covert activities you might be surprised. But nobody whats what they have.

This paragraph doesn’t address what I said at all. The point is that Ukraine is going to lose and sending more weapons rather than negotiating just stacks Ukrainian bodies (it is premised on falsehoods about Ukraine’s ability to succeed). More people, including Ukrainians, die by propping up the illusion of eventual victory.

If ukraine loses there isnt any ukraine left. Ukraine is fighting for some survivial. There is no negotiation possible because its clear Russia doesnt respect any agreements. Ukraine is going to win. The west wouldn't send any weapons if they thought they couldnt. Ukraine has a clear path to victory. They are a nation and they are individuas who can decide if they want to fight or not. Its their call. Your hexbear buddies don't seem to give them any agency. Its degrading and demeaning.

The actual reason that lie is spread is because of the real value to the West: attempting to hurt Russia. The position you’re supporting is to trade Ukrainian dead for Russian dead. Bloodthirsty and callous. My position is to end it as soon as possible, i.e. fewer dead, including UA dead.

Lol. That is like a foundation of all conspiracy theories: if somebody benefits from something, they must be the cause of it. Thats to funny. I bet you subscribe to other conspiracy theories. What are they? Global warming? Anti wax? It has to be anti wax, most of that crowd went onto supporting russia. Moon landing?

Now queue the pretzel logic of how escalations and avoiding diplomacy and lies of victory will somehow lead to fewer dead Ukrainians. How is that summer offensive going? Do you like the outcome of virtually zero progress on anything except dead Ukrainians and Russians? I don’t.

The summer offensive is going slow but steady. Russians can go home. Ukrainians are home and they decide how long to fight.

A Ukraine that wasn’t getting this sham treatment would be negotiating.

No they wouldn't. There would be nothing to negotiate. Russia wouldn't negotiate with someone who surrenders. Thats so bizzare you would think so.

Oh? Is a happy little world what I described?

That all would be great or something. Its stupid. It wouldn't. Ukraine would disapear. There would be a lot of dead people.

Oh, so one reason the war is being escalated so that the US can serve its own interests, including cycling weapons inventory? Some might say, the West?

You’re almost there. Don’t forget that the US couples this with new military contracts at home and debt in UA! See, here is one of the issues you have. Its not the reason, its just a side benefit. Causality and causation. This is one of your main problems in the thinking you have. You have a conspiracy way of thinking.

And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it.

Ahahahahahahahahaha Its funny that you think its funny, because the information you must get to think otherwise must be direct from the Kremlin.

People that are classically uninvolved in propaganda narratives and are usuallycorrect. Incidentally, both of those groups have people who think exactly the opposite thing as well. Can you imagine!?

Oh, who ever thinks differenty than you must be diametrically wrong. Lol. Thats lame. All the people that do extensive analisys, that go in depth into how the war is going, how the russian economy is doing, the contracts and aid Ukraine is getting, they all agree. The war might be long, but it Ukraine will win. I haven't found any opinion that would be a thoughtful anaisys and not some oppinion piece that would say otherwise and I look. But true, i dont listen to kids on youtube wearing Z tshirts.

Oh and btw since I know you love talking about fallacies: appeal to authority. I’d loooove to see you figure out how to read and analyze any media or experts at all without using it, lol.

Lol, I dont think you know what appeal to authority is. That doesn't mean any authority has no valid arguments.

The tone of Russian propagandists hasn’t really changed. It’s almost boring.

It has. Its much darker now. A lot of self pitty. They know things are not going well.

Oh? Is that what happened? Please describe it without mentioning the cycling of old weapons stockpiles, since we agree on whose interests that benefits, right?

It is about the stockpiles. But you know, stockpiles go bad. Munitions go bad and russia nad north korea are not know for their well management of stockpiles. And north korea is known for many other things.

You think Nazi expansionism was just one crazy guy’s idea? lol

Love to hear ahistorical Great Man Theory in condescensing lib posts. You know what I meant. You dont have to do jump around this one. Its really boring.

How are they my comrades?

They are on your side. Calling for the west to stop arming Ukraine. They have the exact same arguments you have. So much, that you should like their mouthpiece. Do you understand that? The worst people in the world and you are saying the same thing. I would think long and hard about why that is and if I want to be in that company.

So, anyways, you forgot to do the one thing you were asked to do. Tell me how our position is uninformed and devalues Ukrainian life. You did manage to call the ideas stupid but had facile or ignorant points every time, but I’ll give you partial credit for trying.

I already have, noumerous times. If you don't want to see it, you wont see it.