this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2025
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Luigi Mangione is accused of stalking United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson and shooting him to death on Dec. 4, 2024.

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[–] Nougat@fedia.io 209 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Solidarity aside, whenever you are arraigned, any lawyer worth their salt will advise you to plead not guilty, because entering a guilty plea means it's over, move on to sentencing, where you have no leverage at all.

You can always change a not guilty plea to a guilty plea later, if a plea deal offered by the prosecution is acceptable to you. This is especially relevant in a case where the death penalty is on the table, but also applies to the possibility of reduced charges or penalties in any case.

I'll also add that this case could well end up with an Alford plea. In short, where the defendant asserts innocence, does not admit to the criminal act, but accepts the sentence because they believe that a jury would find them guilty based on the evidence. Again, this is definitely related to a case where the death penalty is on the table.

[–] thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe 136 points 1 day ago (6 children)

I'd be very disappointed in any jury who found him guilty

[–] ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

The problem is he definitely killed the guy. In a sane world the defense would walk in, state directly to the jury "jury nullification is a thing", and that would be the end of it.

They have engineered a system where the only recourse the common man has is violence, and I have no qualms about saying this CEO, like many others, deserved to die.

[–] jjagaimo@sh.itjust.works 102 points 22 hours ago (4 children)

Having been on a jury,

People are dumb and have no empathy

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 3 points 2 hours ago

I was on a grand jury some years ago in NYC. It really did a number on my faith in people and the legal system.

Now, a grand jury is different than a regular (petit) jury in a few key ways. First, you only need simple majority to move forward with an indictment. You can't 12-angry-men hang a grand jury. Second, as I learned later, even if you do convince a majority to not indict, the prosecutor can just try again. So all those times the police didn't get indicted for murder and the prosecutor just gave up? They could have tried again. They didn't, because they didn't want to.

All of that said, the cases were largely about drugs. People selling weed and heroin and the like. No violence. I suggested to the jury that we maybe just say no, and don't ruin people's lives over marijuana. You don't have to show your work. You can just say whatever. The whole rest of the jury was like "are you insane?" Some of them were just anti-drug, full stop no context. Some of them were like "We have to do what they tell us" very obedient. Some of them just wanted to go home, and thought an indictment would be the fastest way.

They all voted to indict on every charge. The guy who was sleeping, and the lawyers and cops laughed at him snoring, also voted to indict.

I asked the little old white lady sitting behind me a hypothetical. I asked if she was on a jury in the 60s, and the charge was a black man eating at an all white's diner, if she would indict. She was like, "Hmmm maybe."

I tried. One of the cases the cops said they found a gun in the man's house, so they charged him with intent to use it in a violent crime, or something. I was like, they didn't even try to prove it was his or that he was going to use it. Everyone voted to indict. I'm just like, why do you have to make it easier for the police?

[–] Palerider@feddit.uk 60 points 21 hours ago

~~Having been on a jury~~

People are dumb and have no empathy

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 7 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

also heard the smart ones get out of jury duty. i had a former colleague in an old job said she was chosen because she wouldnt speak for herself.

[–] BakerBagel@midwest.social 16 points 19 hours ago

People might not have empathy, but even less people are going to want to side with an insurance company

[–] Charlxmagne@lemmy.world 25 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Realistically they'll try arrange one that will. They're going to try secure a guilty verdict by any means necessary to make an example out of him.

[–] ZoopZeZoop@lemmy.world 14 points 19 hours ago

That would be the worst thing for them to do, but they're not the brightest.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 29 points 23 hours ago (4 children)

Ideally, a jury's responsibility is to weigh the evidence and find whether the evidence supports a guilty verdict beyond a reasonable doubt.

There has been no jury selection yet, let alone presentation of evidence. I would guess that any jury nullification would depend on a defense tactic of "Yes, my client committed this act, and his motive was to prevent UHC from directly causing the deaths of their customers by refusing to honor legitimate claims or by delaying payment of claims." There might be something there, especially since UHC changed its stance on something (I forget exactly what right now) in the wake of their CEO being killed.

But that would be a really difficult defense to mount. You'd basically be admitting to the act and hoping that at least one person on the jury would A) agree with your defense, and B) be willing to hold out over it, and C) not be replaced by an alternate for "failure to follow jury instructions" or some such thing.

Again, since a jury has not even been selected, I won't speculate on what evidence gets presented and what evidence (if any) ends up being excluded. By extension, I cannot agree with your above comment.

Please note that I am also not saying "He's guilty, he should hang", because that would also entail speculating on evidence.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 19 points 20 hours ago

They don't have to say outright that the guy was scum and got what he deserved, just question why the federal charges are being brought while there's a state case and ask questions about how many other people would have a good reason to want this health insurance executive dead. You can introduce the message without abandoning all other defense and saying it explicitly.

[–] Alaik@lemmy.zip 14 points 19 hours ago

"The man who saves his country breaks no laws" isn't that right DoJ?

[–] militaryintelligence@lemmy.world 8 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

They'll find 12 angry rich white women and its over for him. You know it, I know it. Dude martyrd himself from the beginning and I bet he knew it

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 6 points 15 hours ago

they will more than likely choose 12 retirees, and people that dont read the news that much plus any pushovers. thats how they choose these are the most easily manipulated juror types out there. ive been in different forums about juror duties, its almost always these people.

on reddit people speculated they will probably choose one where thier own insurance hasnt screwed them over, so it creates a bias for the prosecution.

[–] Robust_Mirror@aussie.zone 3 points 18 hours ago

Having one person isn't going to help much, even if they don't get replaced, it'll be a hung jury at best, unless they're the most persuasive, charismatic person on earth.

And you generally don't want a hung jury. It's just delaying, and now the other side knows your entire defence strategy and can prepare on better countering it. You having information on their strategy isn't as valuable.

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 14 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (2 children)

In federal Court the judge has a lot more control in the composition of the jury., they even lead voir dire.

They can pick a jury of all ceos if they want.

[–] raltoid@lemmy.world 13 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (1 children)

That would be a bold choice, and I don't think it would work out well overall. In terms of the public response. And imagine the security, it would be locked down harder than any place in the world.

Although in all seriousness, in a normal setting they might be challenged if they chose an all-CEO jury. You can't fill a jury with the potential target victims of the crime that is being accused. It would not be seen as fair by any stretch of the imagination.

If someone was a accused of targeting very tall men with pink hair, you couldn't fill the jury with people matching that description. Any sane person in the legal business would call them crazy.

[–] Ledericas@lemm.ee 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

that would show extreme bias by the courts, its like an all white female jury against a black defendant.

[–] Psythik@lemm.ee 4 points 22 hours ago

Because of this fact a lot of courts will just automatically enter a not guilty plea during your first appearance now.