this post was submitted on 24 Apr 2025
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Comic Strips

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 28 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It's sorting correctly.

11 comes after 1.

The problem is the data needs to be fixed. 01, 02, 03...

[–] logicbomb@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's not sorting correctly. Right above the listing it specifically says "(sorting by #)".

If it says it is sorting by number, but then it sorts alphabetically, then it isn't sorting correctly.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Problem is it can't sort by number of there are text values in file name. "11" is a number. "11." is not. :) Fun with computers!

[–] logicbomb@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Both "11" and "11." are strings, because the context is listing filenames. Filenames are not numbers. They are strings. If you sort filenames by number, you are asking the computer to interpret the string as having a number inside it. At worst, it might interpret "11" as an integer and "11." as a floating point number, because that syntax is often used to specify a floating point number in programming. But even then, it could still sort them correctly.

I don't mean to start an argument, but as a professional programmer, there are just some things that I know.

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Are you intentionally ignoring that the actual names of the files are "11. EpisodeEleven.mp3"? There's whitespaces and a bunch of letters there.

I'm also a professional programmer, and assuming that sorting by numbers code would try to grab the first block of strings until the first whitespace is a big assumption I would not make. I'd say that after trying to convert everything but the extension to a number for sorting it failed so it defaulted to string sorting for everything else.

[–] logicbomb@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You explaining that you would only do a numerical sort when the basename of the filename is entirely a number, as if your logical sense translates into a good user experience, is exactly why companies have to hire UX designers instead of just programmers.

If you have Windows 10, I suggest that you play around with filenames with numbers in file explorer and see how they're sorted. Your intuition does not match the average user's expectations in this circumstance.

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

I know it doesn't, I was countering your logic of "I'm a professional programmer" as if the correct interaction would be obvious to a programmer. The intended interaction requires extra thought and to be more through than the obvious one, as you have described.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

Fair point, but how does it reconcile that 11 and 12 comes before 2?

(Admittedly, I know nothing at all about this stuff. I’m a music major and I went all in on that, so I’m genuinely curious)

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

In alphabetical sorting 11 comes before 2 For the same reason AA is before B.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (5 children)

So that’s the joke then? That someone chose to alphabetically sort numbers?

[–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

The joke is that computers work this way, and it's aggravating.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Not just someone. It's the default when numbers are in text strings, they are treated as text, not as numerical values.
To account for numbers in text strings in any text listing system, requires quite a bit of extra work when programming it.
So the joke is that computers are pretty dumb in this regard, and they need a lot of help to do it right.

[–] knightly@pawb.social 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Basic sorting is always like this, the joke is that way too many people still number things badly. Alphanumerically sorting variable-length numbers without normalizing the number of digits will always result in situations like 02 < 1 < 109 < 11 < 2

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I’m assuming that normalizing digits is similar to normalizing audio? Where you take the numbers and assigning them all a blanket set of instructions?

Normalization in mixing audio essentially takes a track and adjusts the volume of the track’s peaks to keep them from clipping the volume threshold.

Is it like this?

[–] knightly@pawb.social 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Yeah! In general, Normalization refers to adjusting values measured on different scales to a common scale.

Consider 1 and 10. The value of the first digit of both numbers is 1, so a scale-invariant numerical sort sees both numbers as coming before 2.

Normalizing both numbers to a two digit scale gives us 01 and 10, which sort as expected with 02.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ahhh. So you have automated processes that will handle it as well. Just plug in the ranges and it does its thing.

[–] knightly@pawb.social 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Indeed! That kind of scale-sensitive value-based sort requires the data to be invariant in other ways, though. For example, "Episode Three" has 13 charachters, so it would come after "Episode Four" which only has 12 and therefore must be smaller.

Turns out that sorting things is way more complicated than it seems. The wikipedia page on sorting algorithms in computer science lists 37 different ways to sort numbers and it is far from an exhaustive list.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Seems like programming isn’t too dissimilar to giving a child instructions.

[–] knightly@pawb.social 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

It definitely feels like that!

Have a classic joke on the subject:

A software tester walks into a bar.

Runs into a bar.

Crawls into a bar.

Dances into a bar.

Flies into a bar.

Jumps into a bar.

And orders a beer.

2 beers.

0 beers.

99999999 beers.

a lizard in a beer glass.

-1 beer.

"qwertyuiop" beers.

Testing complete.

A real customer walks into the bar and asks where the bathroom is.

The bar goes up in flames.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I really wish I knew what the joke was. 🥺

[–] knightly@pawb.social 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Most software errors are edge cases, like when a program receives an input from a user that the programmer didn't account for.

The software tester is "fuzzing" the input function of the bar by throwing a bunch of weird inputs at it, like jumping through the door rather than walking or ordering absurd, negative, or non-numerical quantities of beer. This is a common way of testing software to make sure it won't crash and burn if unexpected things happen.

Satisfied that the inputs for entering the bar and ordering beer are working properly, the bar opens, and the very first customer still manages to crash it by asking something entirely unrelated to ordering beer.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Ahhh! I get it. Okay, yeah. That’s funny. 😄

[–] abekonge@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago

Wow. Reply guy party.

[–] Klear@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Being computer illiterate makes you angry, I guess?

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Me? Not at all. Unless you meant the comic strip thing, then yeah. I suppose I could see that.

Being bad at a lot of things doesn’t bother me a bit. I’m good at other things. And some of those things, I’m even great at!

[–] Klear@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

No, I did not mean you.

I found it especially overblown since I ran into a very similar issue recently. I actually laughed at myself when I saw the mangled list and fixed the names (it helped that the list was something I generated with a script and adding leading zeroes was a simple matter).

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Filenames are text, not numbers, so 11 comes before 2. So does 111, 101, etc. Anything starting with 1 is before 2.

In order to sort "properly", you have to name your files properly.

00
01
02
up to...
99

If you have more than 100 files in the same folder, the you have to go back through and re-name them:

000
001
002
... 099
100

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I’m starting to understand why programmers are always so angry…

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Oh no this isn't it, this is extremely basic. As a programmer you will encounter way way more complex logic problems, so logic problems become 2nd nature. And it can be frustrating when "normies" don't understand what appear to a programmer to be a matter of pretty simple logic thinking.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

As a “normie” I’d never assume to understand even the most basic of programming. My head hurts to even try and come up with a joke involving the subject.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's so nice we have people like you, that allows us to feel superior, even if we are inferior in every other way imaginable. 👍

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Because it's the same? Or because it's very different?
My wife was a professional musician for a few years.

PS:
Do you get this joke?
The wife sends the man for shopping and asks him to buy 1 liter milk and if they have eggs buy 12.
When he comes home, she looks at him astonished, why did you buy 12 liters of milk?
Because they had eggs he responds.

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

I do get that joke, but that’s probably because I’m of the ASD persuasion.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)
[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Ahh. Makes sense that it can be automated. Same as with audio engineering. Though I like to normalize by hand sometimes as automated normalization tends to make a track sound lifeless and dead.

[–] tal@lemmy.today 1 points 2 days ago

A Perl program to convert the number of digits in the first numeric field that appears in a list of filenames.

source

#!/usr/bin/perl -w
# numberit.pl
# Converts between number formats (number of leading zeros) in numbers in title names
# Usage: <number of digits> filelist

$digits = shift (@ARGV);

if ($digits > -1)
{
    foreach $oldName (@ARGV)
    {
        $newName = $digitValue = $oldName;

        if ($digitValue =~ m/\//) {
          $digitValue =~ m/^(.*\/[^0-9\/]*)([0-9]+)([^\/]*)$/;
          $prefix = $1;
          $postfix = $3;
          if (!defined($prefix)) {
            $prefix = "";
          }

          $digitFormatted = sprintf("%0${digits}d", $2);

        } else {
          $digitValue =~ m/^([^0-9]*)([0-9]+)([^\/]*)$/;
          $prefix = $1;
          $postfix = $3;
          if (!defined($prefix)) {
            $prefix = "";
          }

          $digitFormatted = sprintf("%0${digits}d", $2);


        }

        if ($digitValue) {
          $newName = $prefix . $digitFormatted . $postfix;
          rename($oldName, $newName);
        }
      }
}

Looks something like:

$ touch a1.mp3
$ touch a2.mp3
$ numberit.pl 3 *
$ ls
a001.mp3  a002.mp3
$ numberit.pl 2 *
$ ls
a01.mp3  a02.mp3
$
[–] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Fair point, but how does it reconcile that 11 and 12 comes before 2?

it doesn't, it reconciles that 02 comes before 11

[–] WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Ahhh. Because it’s alphabetical? Like how “eleven” comes before “two” alphabetically?

[–] konalt@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

It's sorted alphabetically. All the numbers that start with "1" come first, then all the numbers that start with "2", regardless of how long the actual number is.