this post was submitted on 16 Dec 2024
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[–] echolalia@lemmy.ml 52 points 1 week ago (1 children)

And? Does this mean he is immune to criticism because he's not Trump? This is a pretty big fuckup, even if it's an accident.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com -3 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Does this mean he is immune to criticism because he's not Trump?

According to the Dem leadership, campaign strategists, and every "Blue No Matter Who" automaton?

Yes. That's exactly what everything means. About both him and his politically identical VP.

[–] phdepressed@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It just means we didn't want orange Hitler act 2. Ds aren't good but they're objectively better than any R. I do what I want in the primary then what I must in the general. If you can't get behind that well... here's 2025 hope one of y'all can shelter me when the new gestapo comes around.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It just means we didn't want orange Hitler act 2. Ds aren't good but they're objectively better than any R. I do what I want in the primary then what I must in the general

No, that part is self evident. Everyone sane and not the victim of intense brainwashing agrees on that.

Where we differ is your false framing.

To pretend that you either support one side unconditionally and never criticize ANYTHING about it no matter what or you're on the other side is absolute lunacy. That or deliberate gaslighting.

If you can't get behind that well

Again with that stupid false dichotomy strawman combo 🤦

Arrogance and obstinate refusal to listen like that from the Dem leadership and obsequious serfs like you is how the fascists won.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Ah the part where you pretend screaming GeNoCiDe for a year and pretended Trump being worse was irrelevant had no effect on elections. I'm sure that of the record number who stayed home, none did it because of the GeNoCiDe frauds.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (2 children)

screaming GeNoCiDe for a year

Yeah, because being at all critical about active complicity in the worst crimes against humanity possible is the same as advocating for fascism! 🤦

and pretended Trump being worse was irrelevant

Yet another strawman. I did no such thing at any point.

I'm sure that of the record number who stayed home, none did it because of the GeNoCiDe frauds.

And I'm equally sure that nobody stayed home because even the lesser evil refused to listen to the vast majority of the people they're supposed to represent. That's not at ALL something that could suppress voter participation! 🙄

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You got what you wanted. Democrats lost.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

No, that's the exact opposite of what I wanted, which I have made clear from the start.

Please either at least TRY to argue in good faith or stop arguing at all.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

TRY to argue in good faith or stop arguing at all.

Says the moral "GeNoCiDe" warrior

Says the moral "GeNoCiDe" warrior

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works -3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah, because being at all critical about active complicity in the worst crimes against humanity possible is the same as advocating for fascism!

It's called marketing. There's a time and a place for criticism, a close race between bad and worse is not that time, online leftist spaces are not that place. Every leftist voter who chooses to abstain contributes to the fascists' margin.

And I'm equally sure that nobody stayed home because even the lesser evil refused to listen to the vast majority of the people they're supposed to represent. That's not at ALL something that could suppress voter participation

The difference is that you don't control the DNC's strategy, you do control your actions.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

There's a time and a place for criticism, a close race between bad and worse is not that time,

The only reason why the two overlapped at all was because the ones aiding and abetting genocide have been refusing to even acknowledge any wrongdoing for over a year!

A blindingly obvious example of this "not listening to their base" problem I mentioned.

online leftist spaces are not that place

Where else would you suggest?

Far right places like Truth social where everyone will agree for the wrong reasons, wrongly thinking that it's about making sure that Trump wins?

"Centrist" places where everyone will automatically disagree, wrongly thinking that it's about making sure that Trump wins?

Just admit that there's no time and no place where you would actually take constructive criticism from the left seriously and pretending that there is is a pretense for making people sit down and shut up.

Every leftist voter who chooses to abstain contributes to the fascists' margin.

Again with the classics bootlicker role reversal.

It's the job of politicians to earn the confidence and thus the votes of the people.

It's NOT the job of the people to meekly go along with politicians with ethically and morally compromised politicians with bad ideas unquestioningly, even IF they're still the least bad option.

The politicians failed the people, not the other way around.

The difference is that you don't control the DNC's strategy, you do control your actions.

The irony of telling the that I'm only allowed to voice dissent at specific times and places where it would be ignored and then saying I'm in control 🤦

Newsflash: the people is SUPPOSED to control the DNC's strategy! They're public servants paid through public means to enact the will of the people FFS! That's literally what they're there for!

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works -3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What's supposed to happen and what happens are two extremely different things. Only fools make plans based on what's supposed to happen. The rest of us plan our actions based on the flawed reality we live in.

You're "allowed" to do whatever you want. I'm just telling you it's counterproductive. You are allowed to be counterproductive, it's just a stupid thing to do.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You are allowed to be counterproductive, it's just a stupid thing to do.

Such as insisting on doing a bunch of reprehensible things that your base hates while you're running for public office?

It's amazing how you keep holding the meaningful actions of the most powerful people in the most powerful country in the world to a much lower standard of responsibility than me, a regular poor person, expressing a reasonable opinion.

Do you REALLY not see how ass-backwards that is??

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You are allowed to be counterproductive, it's just a stupid thing to do.

Such as insisting on doing a bunch of reprehensible things that your base hates while you're running for public office?

Yes, exactly! That is a counterproductive action. And I levy my criticisms regarding that action to the actors themselves, in my direct communication to them.

Two things can be true: it is in the best interest of the DNC to more effectively court their base, and it is in the best interest of leftists for the lesser evil of the duopoly to win until we can break the duopoly.

That's why my correspondence with my representatives is focused entirely on their failings, and my correspondence with other voters is focused entirely on their virtues.

It's amazing how you keep holding the meaningful actions of the most powerful people in the most powerful country in the world to a much lower standard of responsibility than me, a regular poor person, expressing a reasonable opinion.

I hold them responsible for their actions, and I hold you responsible for yours. It's not that my standard for them is lower, my standard for them is irrelevant to the actions of others.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Such as insisting on doing a bunch of reprehensible things that your base hates while you're running for public office?

Yes, exactly! That is a counterproductive action. And I levy my criticisms regarding that action to the actors themselves, in my direct communication to them.

You have a direct line of communication with the president and vice president of the United States? That's impressive, but I don't. Hence the need to express my critiques to peers in stead.

Two things can be true: it is in the best interest of the DNC to more effectively court their base, and it is in the best interest of leftists for the lesser evil of the duopoly to win until we can break the duopoly.

Yes, but I have at no point argued that the lesser evil shouldn't win.

That's what you keep refusing to understand: I want them to change their actions both because the actions are themselves atrocious AND because I wanted them to win and those actions were causing them to lose.

That's why my correspondence with my representatives is focused entirely on their failings

First of all, I still don't have a direct line of communications to the white house. Second of all, I guarantee that, if I had, my complaints and warnings would not be heeded. Like those you pretend to have made were.

and my correspondence with other voters is focused entirely on their virtues.

Well that's just obsequious serf bullshit. Pretending in public that "your team" is always perfect and can do no wrong doesn't convince anyone. It just makes you a bootlicker whose perspective only fellow bootlickers will relate to.

It's amazing how you keep holding the meaningful actions of the most powerful people in the most powerful country in the world to a much lower standard of responsibility than me, a regular poor person, expressing a reasonable opinion.

I hold them responsible for their actions,

No you fucking don't! You claim that you have a private line where you get to discuss all your concerns with the White House, but we both know that that's bullshit.

You may leave a message for your congressperson and/or senator to ignore, but that's it. That's the extent of your options for expressing dissent ay we both know that won't stop the support for genocide any more than me voicing my displeasure in a public forum. If anything, it's LESS effective, as public dissent is much harder to ignore.

and I hold you responsible for yours

My actions of checks notes making my opinion on committing the most heinous crimes against humanity and (correctly, it unfortunately turned out) warning that continuing to ignore the people could cost the election and lead to the fascists taking over

Ooh, such transgression! Ever heard of the first amendment to the US constitution? It has a few sentences specifically about this kind of thing.

It's not that my standard for them is lower, my standard for them is irrelevant to the actions of others.

That would normally make sense, but in the specific case of arguing that it's wrong to ever criticize the Biden administration in public, that's absolute counterfactual nonsense.

Be better and demand better from the people supposed to represent you, please.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 6 days ago (1 children)

You have a direct line of communication with the president and vice president of the United States? That's impressive, but I don't.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

Hence the need to express my critiques to peers in stead.

That doesn't make any sense. "I didn't have a wrench so I used a hammer instead". Those aren't interchangeable, they don't do the same thing. You can't accomplish the task you're attempting with the tool you're using.

Yes, but I have at no point argued that the lesser evil shouldn't win

You can't scream genocide and begrudgingly whisper lesser evil and expect that outcome.

First of all, I still don't have a direct line of communications to the white house. Second of all, I guarantee that, if I had, my complaints and warnings would not be heeded. Like those you pretend to have made were.

Again, yes you do. And if you don't think expressing your grievances directly to them will help, how exactly does telling everyone else your grievances do anything? If those voters aren't directly expressing their grievances en masse, how do the people you're trying to convince hear your message?

That's the extent of your options for expressing dissent ay we both know that won't stop the support for genocide any more than me voicing my displeasure in a public forum. If anything, it's LESS effective, as public dissent is much harder to ignore.

When I contact my representative directly, they are informed of my complaints, and what to do to improve. Voicing your displeasure in a public forum gives them no information, unless the users of that public forum contact their representatives directly. If you don't actually organize your dissent, it is extremely easy to ignore.

Ooh, such transgression! Ever heard of the first amendment to the US constitution? It has a few sentences specifically about this kind of thing.

Again, you have the freedom to be counterproductive. It's not forbidden, it's just stupid.

Be better and demand better from the people supposed to represent you, please.

I do that. Be better at directing your actions to accomplish your goal. Stop banging on bolts with a hammer.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Communicating your displeasure on, say, Israeli policy, does nothing unless you can also replace the millions and millions of AIPAC campaign contributions.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

A fair assessment, nonetheless it is still more effective than communicating displeasure to the wrong audience. Not much more effective, but definitively so.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This is true. I used it as an answer to fundraising calls and texts. :) "No, as long as you're taking AIPAC dollars, you don't need mine."

Direct communication to people associated with DNC strategy, a noble and effective action.

[–] echolalia@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I feel the need to say I completely agree with you. Normally when people quote me I think they are arguing with me idk.

fistbump

Edit: Tell me why you are downvoting me, you cowards!

Normally when people quote me I think they are arguing with me idk

That's usually the case here, yeah 🤷 Glad to be the exception today, though 😁

fistbump

🤜

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -2 points 1 week ago (1 children)
[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yes, really. That's how they lost to the most unqualified, dishonest, and mentally unhinged presidential candidate in modern history. Twice.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Sure, that's what it is, because people said we should vote for Biden instead of hold him to a high standard while ignoring Trump acting like neo-Hitler.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Again with the false dichotomy: it is in fact possible to vote for someone without holding them blameless no matter what they do or don't do.

You're not just allowed but REQUIRED to hold the ones meant to represent you to a high standard if you want anything to improve.

"Anything better than Trump is good enough" is not how you end up with people accurately representing the will of the people or even PRETENDING to.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

it is in fact possible to vote for someone without holding them blameless no matter what they do or don't do.

LMAO and yet you started this thread ranting about how if someone ever pushed back on you, it means they are fully intolerant of ANY criticism of ANY Democrat, ever.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

you started this thread ranting about how if someone ever pushed back on you, it means they are fully intolerant of ANY criticism of ANY Democrat, ever.

Nope, sure didn't. That's just you projecting.

I can explain it for you, and I have, but I can't understand it for you. Have the day you deserve.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

All anyone has to do is scroll up to be reminded. You claimed your "enemy" is entirely incapable of nuance and in the way you did so, proved you aren't.

Thanks for the weird threat to my day tho?

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I was employing obvious hyperbole to make a point. That you chose to take it literally in spite of that in order to build yet another strawman is on you.

Thanks for the weird threat to my day tho?

Wishes aren't threats. If I was powerful enough to wish things into existence, Trump would never have become president and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Now go bother someone else with your bad faith nonsense.

[–] TrickDacy@lemmy.world -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Have the exact day that karma has in store for you 😍

Thanks, I will now that I'm hopefully done with your nonsense for the day.