EU and NATO need to pool together every resource to bankrupt this rotten state and drive it from Ukrainian soil. The defeat has to be so harsh that the ruzzkis won't be able to cross any border forever. Confine them to their own country, period.

[+] rottingleaf@lemmy.world -6 points 23 hours ago (6 children)

Russia has that black poop from the ground which is a valuable enough resource to be bought by someone for something .

It goes bankrupt if suddenly oil consumption drops 3 times. Or something like that. But not immediately even then, because it has reserves.

EU and NATO are not interested in Russia imploding. They are showing very clearly that their intention is to softly bleed it so that it wouldn't be too aggressive, but also to preserve its current regime, because that regime is convenient.

It's just the sad truth.

As to why Western countries always supported said regime, since Yeltsin usurping power in 1993, - I just don't know.

[–] Skiluros@sh.itjust.works 8 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

The said regime is also happens to be backed nearly universally by the russian population and is the core source of its power.

The "west is to blame" narrative is typical russian victim-hood polemics.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world -1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

The said regime is also happens to be backed nearly universally by the russian population and is the core source of its power.

No it's not. I don't think you have even been to Russia.

There is a sizeable proportion of population not yet penetrated by the whole idea of democracy, but those would back any "current" regime.

The “west is to blame” narrative is typical russian victim-hood polemics.

In real life everybody is to blame, it's just a question of proportions.

[–] Skiluros@sh.itjust.works 6 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

There is a sizeable proportion of population not yet penetrated by the whole idea of democracy, but those would back any “current” regime.

You're infantilizating the russian population. Political satirical TV shows in the 90s (remember this was before the internet) easily rivaled what you would see even on current US TV. Yet most russians were happy to accept a clampdown on independent TV and reelected putin in 2004 (generally considered a free and fair election). And they were OK with the comical medvedev seat warming exercise in 2008, not to mention putin's formal return in 2012.

The russians would never back any political force that would reject imperialism or even acknowledge russian crimes. Even the alleged "opposition" in the form of Navalniy's gang is deeply committed to imperialism.

In real life everybody is to blame, it’s just a question of proportions.

This is a non-sequitur. The ultimate responsibility for the state of russian politics lies on the russians themselves.

It's about the choices they make. There is nothing inherent to russian society/culture that would justify such a state of affairs.

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 0 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

You’re infantilizating the russian population. Political satirical TV shows in the 90s (remember this was before the internet) easily rivaled what you would see even on current US TV. Yet most russians were happy to accept a clampdown on independent TV and reelected putin in 2004 (generally considered a free and fair election). And they were OK with the comical medvedev seat warming exercise in 2008, not to mention putin’s formal return in 2012.

This whole paragraph does not contradict what I said, but your tone seems to suggest it does.

Also those satirical TV shows were all basically crying wildly that bad things are coming. Said bad things came. So?

Anyway, this doesn't make the Russian population any more or less infantile than the Ukrainian population.

The russians would never back any political force that would reject imperialism or even acknowledge russian crimes. Even the alleged “opposition” in the form of Navalniy’s gang is deeply committed to imperialism.

That political force was dissolved after its key figures were murdered or ridiculed on TV 24/7 in the late 90s and early 00s. It definitely existed.

Also Navalny's ideas have changed a lot over time. If you are referring to his "Crimea is not a sandwich" statement, it's just correct - international law has such a thing as right of self-determination, regardless of what Ukrainian laws say. The fact of military aggression doesn't negate that right.

This is a non-sequitur. The ultimate responsibility for the state of russian politics lies on the russians themselves.

My cousins' father is from Artsakh, Ukrainian politicians congratulated Azeris with their crimes. I couldn't care less what Ukrainians have to say on responsibility after that. Try following your own declared principles first. Otherwise it's not even funny.

It’s about the choices they make. There is nothing inherent to russian society/culture that would justify such a state of affairs.

People are responsible to the degree the structure of power is affected by their choices. Said structure right now is affected negligibly by most of the Russian population.

[–] Skiluros@sh.itjust.works 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

I never said russians were more or less infantile than any other group of people. I said your inability to treat russian like adults who are responsible for their actions ("they've never seen democracy", "the west has backed Yeltsin since 1993") is an infantilization of russian society. Is this not true?

Also those satirical TV shows were all basically crying wildly that bad things are coming. Said bad things came. So?

I referenced the satirical political shows during the 90s to highlight that the russians did have experience with an independent (perhaps imperfect) mass market press. Yet they did not see this as important. What do you mean by "bad things are coming"? Can you be clear and specific and not beat around the bush? Because it sounds like you haven't actually lived in russia and you have no idea what you're talking about.

Also Navalny’s ideas have changed a lot over time. If you are referring to his “Crimea is not a sandwich” statement, it’s just correct - international law has such a thing as right of self-determination, regardless of what Ukrainian laws say. The fact of military aggression doesn’t negate that right.

Thank you for proving my point about broad support for imperialism among russian society.

People are responsible to the degree the structure of power is affected by their choices. Said structure right now is affected negligibly by most of the Russian population.

And who is ultimately responsible for the said [russian political] structure right now?

[–] rottingleaf@lemmy.world -1 points 17 hours ago

I never said russians were more or less infantile than any other group of people. I said your inability to treat russian like adults who are responsible for their actions (“they’ve never seen democracy”, “the west has backed Yeltsin since 1993”) is an infantilization of russian society. Is this not true?

No, it's my opinion of the humanity as a whole. My experience shows it's infantile. There's no moral principle obligating us to believe in something not confirmed with experience.

What do you mean by “bad things are coming”? Can you be clear and specific and not beat around the bush? Because it sounds like you haven’t actually lived in russia and you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I thought you meant "Куклы" and such.

Thank you for proving my point about broad support for imperialism among russian society.

Right of self-determination is anti-imperialist. If the conflict were between Ukraine's constitution and that right, Ukraine would be imperialist. It's just not.

But hypothetically, if they ever want to, they have that right. And if you want to make the world better, there's no use denying it. Especially since no region possibly votes in favor of voluntarily splitting from Ukraine in proximity of Russia, not after this war. I mean, it's a clearly hypothetical question since they are occupied.

And who is ultimately responsible for the said [russian political] structure right now?

I've already said that responsibility is proportional to input in a decision, right?

So first and foremost people on top of it, diplomats, special services workers, intelligence workers, high-ranking military people.

Then those whose input is a bit less.

Other than that, I guess one can differentiate by how someone voted in their life.

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