And the majority of Ukrainians would prefer that as well. And despite what you're (probably) going to say, this is not just my opinion, this is a fact - Zelensky has to prevent people from leaving the country, he has to kidnap people off the streets just so that there is some cannon fodder to prolong the war. People either hide at home, or run from recruitment officers. People would rather die trying to escape the country than die on a battlefield fighting for Zelensky's regime. And even western medias are writing about it now, it's not taboo anymore. Zelensky tries real hard to convince people that Putin will exterminate Ukrainians. And yet, it's you (probably) who believes him, not the actual people who are supposedly about to be exterminated.

Seriously, just stop for a moment and think - if Russia is as evil as some try to portrait it - why is Zelensky having so much trouble with conscription? Why those stupid stupid Ukrainians don't go and fight for their survival against Putin who is going to destroy them? Maybe, just maybe, it's actually propaganda?

[–] boonhet@lemm.ee 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Okay, that's fair, Ukrainians never faced any serious discrimination under Russian rule. Unfortunately, as an Estonian, I know people whose families were affected by the forced deportations. By the way, how do you feel about Crimean Tatars or the Holodomor? Are those just anti-Russian propaganda too?

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, as an Estonian, I know people whose families were affected by the forced deportations.

Oh well, I never really said that Russia is good, it has done lots of bad things, including to the Baltic states.

It's just that what Zelensky is doing to us is infinitely worse than what would probably be "under Russian rule".

By the way, how do you feel about Crimean Tatars or the Holodomor? Are those just anti-Russian propaganda too?

Holodomor - my great grandmother lived through it, I have little reason to doubt it or think that it is anti-Russian propaganda, it was terrible.

Crimean Tatars - I'm not very familiar with this topic so I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to (I guess it's the deportations?), but I'm sure it was also indeed a bad thing.

[–] boonhet@lemm.ee 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

It’s just that what Zelensky is doing to us is infinitely worse than what would probably be “under Russian rule”.

I guess that's true, I'm not a fan of forced conscription and punishable desertion either. But if Russia wins, have you escaped forced conscription for good? Or will you be forced to fight in Putin's next conquest?

For now, you have a chance to build your own country still. Yes there's a lot of corruption and many, many other issues. Yes, the GDP per capita is pretty weak so Ukrainians are better off working abroad. But you still get a say in matters. Zelenskyy the comedian was elected because people were tired of the status quo. Has he fixed everything? Probably not, but he can still be replaced. In the modern day Russian empire you either vote for Putin or your vote doesn't count.

Crimean Tatars - I’m not very familiar with this topic so I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to (I guess it’s the deportations?), but I’m sure it was also indeed a bad thing.

Yes, I meant the deportations. Russia deported every single one of them because they saw them as a geopolitical threat in Crimea. Here in the Baltics at least it was mostly people with land or nasty back-stabbing neighbours that were deported, not specific ethnic groups generally.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you're not a Russian shill, but an actual person with a real view to the entire issue. Obviously I support your right to not go to war against Russia. But I think just laying down arms isn't a solution either. Of course, I have a vested interest of my own. The more your brothers and sisters weaken Russia, the safer I am too.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

But if Russia wins, have you escaped forced conscription for good? Or will you be forced to fight in Putin's next conquest?

Forced conscription in general - probably not.
What Zelensky's doing is not just forced conscription, it's literally kidnapping people off the streets, putting them into vans, often beating them in the process, keeping people in basements for multiple days, etc. and only then sending them to the meatgrinder. It's also has been described in western medias already btw, it's called "busification" if you want to have a read / watch what happens on the Ukrainian streets.

For now, you have a chance to build your own country still. Yes there's a lot of corruption and many, many other issues. Yes, the GDP per capita is pretty weak so Ukrainians are better off working abroad. But you still get a say in matters. Zelenskyy the comedian was elected because people were tired of the status quo. Has he fixed everything? Probably not, but he can still be replaced. In the modern day Russian empire you either vote for Putin or your vote doesn't count.

With Zelenaky in leadership nobody has any say. He is for a long time already an unelected usurper. I am not here to discuss whether voting in Russia is rigged or not, but at least people there can vote, can form political parties. Under Zelensky's regime you simply can't.
I'd love to see my country an indepent and free country, but the first pre-requirement for that is removing Zelensky from power (trialing him for crimes against humanity would be nice, but I know that it would never happen), and then seek a compromise with Russia.
He and his regime are threat #1 to us.

Obviously I support your right to not go to war against Russia.

Thank you.

But I think just laying down arms isn't a solution either.

People should be able to decide for themselves. Zelensky knows it's not on the table for his regime, because apart from a few nationalists (a lot of whom are already dead) nobody is going to fight for his regime.

Of course, I have a vested interest of my own. The more your brothers and sisters weaken Russia, the safer I am too.

This is not a nice thing to say, but at least you're honest about this in contrast to the hypocrites who say that they are "helping us".

[–] boonhet@lemm.ee 0 points 2 days ago

With Zelenaky in leadership nobody has any say. He is for a long time already an unelected usurper.

Is this not usually the case during defensive wars?

When the war's over, if he doesn't step down and call an election, you guys are going to have to Gaddafi him in order to keep/restore your democracy I guess.

I am not here to discuss whether voting in Russia is rigged or not, but at least people there can vote, can form political parties.

I mean yeah, but when a certain candidate is able to get over 100% of the votes, you might ask whether or not the elections happening are actually worse than not happening - at least when they don't happen, you're not under any illusions.

This is not a nice thing to say, but at least you’re honest about this in contrast to the hypocrites who say that they are “helping us”.

It's not a nice thing to say, but this is me laying the cards on the table regarding what my position is. If Ukrainians want to fight for their freedom - that's super and you have my full support. If y'all DON'T really want to fight, but are being forced to - I don't think any normal person is happy about it, myself not included, but technically it's still beneficial to millions of non-Ukrainian Eastern Europeans every time a Russian tank is blown up or an actually competent high-level officer killed. I just feel like a lot of people are disingenuous when they say support Ukrainians. Yes, much of the western world supports you guys, but so many of us also have something to gain, even if this is not the main motivation for most people's support.