this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2024
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If Putin doesn't care how many Ukrainians die, why is he even averse to hitting their rail lines and electrical infrastructure? They clearly save these attacks for retaliation when negotiations fall through yet again and the bellicose US statements get out of hand yet again.
The whole mystification of Iran and Russia's clear strategy of "fuck off so we can stabilize and develop" that inevitably results in risks to our own stability is too funny. Western orientalism is strong in 2024 as it was in 2001.
Russia doesn't benefit from destabilized hostile states on its border. What about that is so hard for liberals to understand? Putin and the oligarchs literally wanted to loot their country and sell shit to the west and you idiots have driven them to China. I should thank you, but you didn't have any say in the matter.
Just wanna point out that in this initial reply to the comment tree, you did the exact same thing I just called you out on:
Misrepresenting (or to not assume malice, misREADING) another comment to then spin your entire narrative around that error.
They said:
You base your retort on:
"this already shows you are terrible at reading. How am I supposed to expect you to treat anything else I show you seriously when you cannot even read your own material?"
You cannot be serious, this is a distinction without a difference. I can't believe you've managed to find a way to fence sit between your own position and mine. Yes, to add to your inability to read, you seemingly intend to exhaust my energy by arguing about meaningless nonsense. You have the attitude of someone who does not value their time.
Thats a lot of words that all don't say "my bad i misread that". Try that for once.
It's called paraphrasing. It means literally the same thing. 🤣 You are fucking desperate.
Define paraphrasing :D
Dude you don't even know how to gish gallop properly. You're just being annoying.
not my fault you just sent me 3 or 4 responses across the thread
Well I'm not trying to run ahead and throw out a bunch of shit before you elaborate on what you're saying. I mean you told me to move on to arguing about the veracity of this footage but I think these discussions have no purpose unless we establish what premises we are working with and what the history of the conflict is.
A lot of civilians already died in the civil war in Ukraine 2014-2022 before Russia got involved. There is a lot more to this. I just doubt considering how you reply we will get to that but, these are still emails, and we can stick to one thread if you want lol.
I have a feeling our timelines diverged a good bit earlier than that, not sure if we'll be able to hold amy meaningful conversation.
Still lacking any substance or source btw, I'll stop engaging now.
I mean you were just for some reason denying the wording but not the intended meaning of your messages.
I know how you're going to try to deny what I am about to show you, you're going to dismiss it as Russian propaganda. You don't want to hear shit about how we get sources now, either from press releases, "whistleblowers" (like Grayzone does), or leaked by soldiers themselves like the following video. Please take note of the source of the video. This is from a Ukrainian commanding officer's phone. People you dislike reporting this does not magically make it "propaganda". Zhorin posted this. https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/russia-appeals-to-intl-organizations-over-kupyansk-execution
Here are some of the hundreds of examples of Ukrainians posting "saboteurs" being publicly whipped like we live under fucking feudalism https://web.archive.org/web/20220320160425/https://twitter.com/Youblacksoul/status/1505309631542931459
All ignored by western media
https://ukraine.un.org/en/168060-conflict-related-civilian-casualties-ukraine
If you look at all of the UN reports on the Ukraine Donbas war they make it clear the civilian casualties are in Donbas. I guess you think the Russians are false flag cluster bombing Donbas concerts or something.
It's almost like blindly trusting US propaganda post Iraq war is a fool's errand. I mean it was before that too but shit man
Ah so putin is the good guy whos checks notes liberating the ukraine and totally reasonable in his target choices?
Why exactly are you so convinced Russian leadership wants to massacre Ukraine and have a wasteland on the border? Ukraine was a vital trading partner for Russia prior to the western coup. Why do you think that the US and its allies fund a proxy war on Ukrainian territory? Out of the goodness of their hearts? They have been privatizing state assets in Ukraine, speculating on them, taking advantage of the spike in European requirement for US natural gas to replace Russia, and making huge military industrial purchases to replace what Russia destroys.
I'm sure Russia will settle for a slowly steamrolled Ukraine as a second option if the terror attacks on Russian office buildings etcetera continue, they might not even stop at western Ukraine, it could go on for years. They have been willing at many points to freeze the conflict so that they can go on making some money with Ukraine. Like I said it took them ten years to come to the aid of Donbas while civilians were being bombed there (Ukrainian leadership openly bragged about making the eastern Ukrainians' children stay in bomb shelters rather than school). The west chose the drawn out destruction of cities, the destruction of a dam for no good reason.
surely you have a lot of irrefutable sources for your claims.
It's crazy how many people here are touting the widely disclaimed coup or genocide.
Like surely there's a lot of publicly accessible, independent data on all of that, right?
Surely there's a very good reason why Crimea was invaded in a cloak-and-dagger operation by unmarked soldiers while russia officially demented any accusations it's their troops? Surely.
It's 2024 and you are deepthroating the White House narrative. You trust the people who invaded Iraq because they said Al-Qaeda was there to tell you who "the bad guy" is.
I will show you plenty of sources, including actual video of Ukrainian forces torturing and killing civilians that has been verified independently. But first I want a source for your claim that Russia is indiscriminately bombing civilians. I will show you how easy it is to verify that your sources are not independent, funded by western finance capital, and undermined by statements from think tanks which cater to higher brow audiences on "your side" aka the ruling class that knows you don't know how to research and most of their population is functionally illiterate.
I am well aware of what the headlines say. You don't know your head from your ass without the Associated Press or the BBC weighing in on the subject.
Muricacentric much?
Strawman, letsgooo.
Besides your random made up arguments, here are some numbers on civilian casualties:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
There's of course a bunch of civilian massacres still under active investigation, plus a lot of varying numbers between UA officials and independent reports. Mostly it's just the precise numbers that are unclear, not the act itself. See:
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/f/a/515868.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/06/ukraine-deadly-mariupol-theatre-strike-a-clear-war-crime-by-russian-forces-new-investigation/ https://www.npr.org/2022/06/27/1107854331/russian-missile-strike-shopping-mall-kremenchuk
But of course these are all western propaganda, please enlighten me with your credible sources full of irrefutable proof that i'm entirely consumed by fake news.
It's not a strawman you just again said that "of course" there's a bunch of civilian massacres under investigation. You literally just made the same argument you said was a strawman a sentence ago. Show your sources so we can expose your total intellectual dependence on spoon feeding from the media of the US and its allies.
I already know of this. First of all this statistic is of the total reports of civilian deaths on both sides in the war, this already shows you are terrible at reading. How am I supposed to expect you to treat anything else I show you seriously when you cannot even read your own material? You can't chalk up every single civilian death reported in the conflict to Russia, that is completely idiotic.
Second, they are taking Ukrainian government reports at face value. Prior to the war in Ukraine The Guardian and BBC and NYT all commented on how corrupt the Ukrainian state is, among the worst in the world.
Third, the UN human rights commission is headed by an EU guy, and is overall an institution which is controlled by the US and never intervenes in US imperialism. The US openly mocks UN officials it has problems with, like with the Iraq war, and uses its clout to prevent Iranian, Russian and Venezuelan politicians from accessing the UN without being arrested. The UN's total abdication of responsibility as an international human rights institution and subservient reliance on the US and its allies has been put on full display by a year of genocide in Gaza.
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/03/17/human-rights-ngo-hrw-amnesty-us-government/ Yes Amnesty has close ties to the White House. The global financial system, telecommunications, journalist and academia, it's all very centralized with America, Western Europe, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Singapore, and to some extent wealth petromonarchies' main cities Riyadh, Dubai, and Abu Dhabi
Righty, we're playign a game of semantics not content. Got it.
I wrote
Any further specific claims came from you.
Further:
me acknowledging the unclear nature of war-time reports.
Again, the rest is you projecting a slightly different argument onto my words to give yourself an easier time filing me away as a "propaganda victim" or whatever.
If I were to argue like you do, I'd now go off about how you claim ALL civilian casualties died at Ukrainian hands.
I don't do that though, instead I'd ask you to provide the detailed breakdown you seem to have you hands on.
You seem to also have missed this:
Meaning, your alleged genocide is not in this dataset.
And lastly, you're still not providing literally anything of substance yourself. You only tactic is discredit any potential source and ignore the ones you don't wanna engage with in advance so you can later claim "no that one doesn't count, I already said it's propaganda" while the only thing you're currently leaning on is an opinion piece from a heavily biased borderline conspiracy rag.
Either you engage with what I'm writing and work with the people you're talking to, or you keep arguing in bad faith. If you pick the latter, feel free, go off king, i'm not interested.
Also, I am convinced you are just stupid at this point. Crimea not being in the dataset doesn't refute a single thing I said. You're completely incoherent in every comment.
Ah must've been the ukrainians killing civillians on Ukrainian ground then DROP YOUR SOURCE.
Actually I want to ramp this up. Give me one example of a massacre on Ukrainian soil committed by the Russians. If you want to use Bucha I have plenty of material about that which was written by a guy I know in Oregon. But I would prefer to give you yet another opportunity to show you have a single non US propaganda source.
Your only "tactics" are thought cancelling cliches, creating a semantic difference where there is none, and again rebuking sources as "propaganda rags" you didn't even attempt to argue with me pointing out Western sources have a conflict of interest when reporting on their own war.
I like how you primarily quoted yourself and chose to ignore all of the "content" you were actually presented with. I responded directly to your sources and claims, you leave me with pedantry and a refusal to examine what I posted. I doubt there is a good reason to continue this discussion but like I said, we are still unpacking the premises of what we are arguing over. I raised doubt about the basis of your claims, we are not going to just mindlessly run with you sourcing only one side of the conflict.
You are already retreating from your claims about Russians indiscriminately targeting civilians. I guess I caught you empty-handed.
You didnt present anything buddy. I read your link. It was inconsequential. Do you have anything that actually refute any of the facts? Lets just go for the civillian deaths, ignoring all and any speculative accusations. Just the hard numbers. Who killed them. How many?
The argument wasnt about which source you like. You just pivoted there for you have nothing relevant to add. Your first move was to deflect from the topic at hand to an argument about sources. Okay there are dozens of them, which ones do you allow for this discussion?
Okay, cool, news sites have conflicts of interest. Thats why you vet the ones that are mostly neutral DESPITE ties. Same applies to yours, but thats nothing you can even fucking fathom.
Stop deflecting. Stay on topic for just one comment.
Drop your sources on the civillian deaths or shut up and move on.
Well I mean we did start off by talking about your claim the Russians are indiscriminately bombing civilians though! I would prefer to get your unsourced claim out of the way so we can see that yes, it is just parroting what the Ukrainian government says. But yes I will show you videos the Ukrainians themselves have posted of hurting civilians in a second. You do not get to flip around your claim and demand I prove a negative. That's not how it works.
As an aside, I know significantly more about the Grayzone's conflicts of interests than you LMAO. They are not infallible, all modern journalism is severely limited due to financial, and political constraints. I will source US financial news frequently because they say the quiet part louder than CNN and NBC et al
That's still false :)
What would you define "many massacres" carried out with artillery as.