this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2024
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Anon questions our energy sector (slrpnk.net)
submitted 5 days ago by MataVatnik@lemmy.world to c/science_memes@mander.xyz
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[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Because oil has never depended on outside countries that are openly hostile.

That argument is so weak to me. No one is advocating "oil is the future! We need to build more oil consuming power plants!". If people were, sure you'd have a great counter. Since that's not reality though, its a Strawman response at best. Its Whataboutism at its worse.

[–] dustyData@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

The argument I'm replying to is a classic "not perfect, thus not worth it". Its disingenuous and it calls for disingenuous reply. We are also pursuing renewables in despite of their political and technical flaws. The point is that all the flaws that OP exposes about nuclear power also applied to renewables (at one point in history solar power was 10x more expensive than nuclear) and also to oil. They are status quo defending arguments designed to halt thought, paralyze action and scoff change. Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean it isn't better.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The argument I’m replying to is a classic “not perfect, thus not worth it”. Its disingenuous and it calls for disingenuous reply.

I wrote nearly a page of text all of factual and relevant points. If your threshold for bad faith replies is that every facet of every argument must be explored before you'll allow a genuine reply, you're in the wrong place.

We are also pursuing renewables in despite of their political and technical flaws.

Agreed! We are seeing their benefits over their shortcomings. Additionally, its not an all-or-nothing decision. A blend of solutions is the best likely path forward. Some nuclear (currently built) should be part of that. However, putting all the efforts into scaling nuclear would be extremely expensive. If we do that, we should understand that cost will be much larger than most people understand.

The point is that all the flaws that OP exposes about nuclear power also applied to renewables (at one point in history solar power was 10x more expensive than nuclear) and also to oil.

Thats a bad argument to support your pro-nuclear position. Other renewables are expensive when they are first developed and get cheaper over time. Nuclear has gone the other direction. Nuclear power is more expensive now than it was when it began, and is only getting more expensive.

They are status quo defending arguments designed to halt thought, paralyze action and scoff change. Just because it isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it isn’t better.

My dollar cost argument against nuclear is not that.

The exceptionally high dollar cost of nuclear was not part of the conversation before I introduced it. It is an important consideration if we're talking about scaling out any particular solution. If one solution is more expensive than others that produces the same result that is important to consider.

[–] dustyData@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Nuclear has gone the other direction. Nuclear power is more expensive now than it was when it began, and is only getting more expensive.

Ask why? don't just stay with oil companies PR talk points. Nuclear is expensive because innovation has been artificially stifled. A huge part of this, is the insistence to forbid newer designs and more modern improvements, and instead force new plants to use old technologies and models that rely on on-site bespoke construction, as well as arcane and arbitrary administrative processes. Nuclear power is expensive (in the US), because it was made expensive by refusing it all the factors that typically reduce costs of technologies. Nuclear power never got to take advantage of the things that made solar and wind power cheaper, because oil companies lobbied with a shit ton of money to prevent it.

It doesn't matter though. Nuclear power could've help us survive climate change…40 years ago. It's too late now anyways. Even if we covered the whole planet with solar power and stopped every single combustion engine in existence, we are already on the way to living in a hellscape. We must focus on survival of the species now.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago

Ask why? don’t just stay with oil companies PR talk points.

I do. I'm not using anyone's talking points. I couldn't even tell you what they would be. I have 2 smaller nuclear power plants in my state. I liked the idea of nuclear power, but looked into it myself. It seems like it should be great. Reality shows it isn't great. I does one thing well (24/7 carbon free electricity), but thats it. Everything else is negatives I found.

Nuclear is expensive because innovation has been artificially stifled.

I read your article. It doesn't say what you're saying it does. That article says "nuclear is expensive" because projects are building old designs retrofitting existing plants.

A huge part of this, is the insistence to forbid newer designs and more modern improvements,

See you say that, but facts don't align with that: "NRC Certifies First U.S. Small Modular Reactor Design" Jan 2023 source

Do ALL new reactor designs get approved? No. Do no new reactor designs get approved? Also no.

Nuclear power is expensive (in the US), because it was made expensive by refusing it all the factors that typically reduce costs of technologies.

I read your article there. Its argument is that the theoretical arguments for pricing nuclear power are faulty. We don't have to work with theoreticals. The customers of the most recently brought online reactors at Vogle nuclear power plant in Georgia are paying significantly more for their electricity as the result of their new nuclear reactors, and will, for decades to come. I pointed this out and cited sources in my OP on this.

It doesn’t matter though. Nuclear power could’ve help us survive climate change…40 years ago. It’s too late now anyways. Even if we covered the whole planet with solar power and stopped every single combustion engine in existence, we are already on the way to living in a hellscape. We must focus on survival of the species now.

Agreed, so its irrelevant to bring up what could have been done in the past. We have what we have today.