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GAZA: 3,195 children killed in three weeks surpasses annual number of children killed in conflict zones since 2019
(www.savethechildren.net)
this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
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To make it perfectly clear - the fact that children are dying is reprehensible and it should be stopped. Even if one innocent child died, from both sides, it's one too many.
That being said, this is a very good example of propaganda by partial information and numbers manipulations.
The UN report in question identifies anyone under the age of 18 as a child. The Al-Qassam brigades recruit teens from the age of 16 to active combative roles (some reports suggest an even younger age).
It's impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens, and the UN report references that. The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
A worldwide charity that's existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda? Please explain this, because you say that one is too many but then you say "don't fall for this guys, it's not nearly that many."
Are you saying it's ok to murder minors because they're armed? Are you saying that's why these minors were murdered? Do you have proof of this? Because your statements seem to be the ones which are unfounded and sound a lot like propaganda to excuse the murder of thousands of children.
A common tactic by propagandists is to call inconvenient information propaganda. It's like how fascists tend to blame their opponents for engaging in behavior that only the fascists are actually engaging in.
Eh, I generally feel like anything aimed at people under 18 in the context of an air bombardment is still not a justifiable murder. I'm with ya, Hamas fucked up. What they did is indefensible, but also taking a life from someone who hasn't even had the opportunity to understand the world and the chance to make those bigger decisions from a grown place yet is very wrong to me.
If it's a battle, back and forth, firing guns, kill or be killed, I guess that's just how it shakes out. I don't expect someone to just let themselves be shot there by a minor (whether they should be there is another story, but ok). But If you just have suspicions this kid is an enemy, or you see them with a gun, or hell you even have solid evidence that kid has been recruited as a child soldier, I don't think you get to judge them with death by bomb outside the moment. That's part of what's so difficult in discussing or defining what constitutes a child soldier or a legitimate target. These kids already got robbed of so much in their ability to live a normal childhood. In America countless black kids were cast as "super predators" in the 90's in much the same way. I respect where your coming from and don't doubt your sincerity but believe we just have a difference of opinion on this matter.
According to this NPR article, the age range both you and the commenter are describing (15-19) represents 10.6% of the male population. The combined totals below them = 40.8% of the population. So what, a fifth = 639 of them in that age range died. Then what percentages of those deaths are militants? Say 50% So 320? Out of 3,195?
Obviously you can't account for distribution and other factors without further info, but still I think that it's more right than it is wrong then by any stretch of the imagination. You've stated similar stuff up the thread but I just don't feel like to cast this as propaganda by numbers manipulation or partial information is a statement that can be taken at face value, given that the lack of numbers and information are a byproduct of intentional suppression by the power committing the offensive.
Just one inaccuracy - there were no settlers in Gaza for nearly 20 years.
That's not inaccurate. He said Palestine. That's more than just Gaza, it's the West Bank+ as well. And they have been under absolutely relentless attacks (and murders) by settlers, especially since the 7th. Even though they are divided, they are one people. It's not like those kids in Gaza don't know that.
I was referring to "It’s small wonder that people support Hamas and children join the only force that seems to be fighting for them".
There's little love (and that's a huge understatement) between Hamas and the PLO and children in the west bank rarely join Hamas.
He literally never said anything about settlers in Gaza, which was what you said and are now shuffling around. I'll leave it there though because I think your agenda is quite clear now and he is more than capable of responding if he likes.
A totally fair point. You spoil us all with your reasonable, genial demeanor and commitment to calling out bias.
Hamas is a terrorist group.
Israel isn't an equivalent. Its a fully fledged nation state with sophisticated military and intelligence agency. Israel's behaviour should be measured based on how a nation state should act. Not a terrorist group.
If you think Israel is justified in killing children because Hama's did. Your arguing Israel is a terrorist state, just one your sympathetic to.
I don't think we should compare Israel to the standards we hold for terrorists. Because we don't have any standards for terrorists. Additionally Israel's capability for killing far exceeds what Hamad can achieve.
All the deaths due to the recent Hamas attack is the best Hamas can do. How many people could Israel kill, probably all 2 million in the Gaza strip.
Extremist Christians and extremist Zionists have wanted this for a long time. Only tempered by the west's intolerance for mass killing. Since the Hamas attack the US and UK have both morally approved of moving into to Gaza.
Absolutely, 100%. Human rights organisations are not unbiased news outlets - they have agendas and objectives. Their objectives are commendable ones, and the work they do is invaluable, but they still utilise propaganda as a means to an end. As good and important as this end is, their reports should be received with the same amount of caution and critical thinking as any report coming from anyone with an objective in this.
That's just a straw man. I never suggested that it's not that many. It can be 3,257 and it could be 0. I just pointed out the information manipulation.
It's never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
Another point for you to consider is that traditionally, in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
So could you clarify your point:
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in? Or we should just preemptively kill any kid as they might turn into future terrorists.
Oh and by the way, I am pretty sure the Palestinian population are viewing the Israelian as terrorists and Hamas as liberators the same way you see Palestinians and IDF. So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who's in charge.
Not defending Hamas, giving you just some food for thought maybe and if you disagree with this statement, could you provide me a definition of a terrorist and try to apply it through the eye of the regular Gazan.
I really couldn't say in this case, and I'm very happy that I'm not the one that has to make this choice . Quite a few soldiers in conflict areas lost their lives because they couldn't either.
Read my first sentence in the original message.
There's point of view and there is the international law. The legal terms is that the IDF is a country's military and as such it is expected to uphold international treaties, it is held to high standards and it receives a lot scrutiny when it goes out of line or makes mistakes. Hamas is a terror organisation and therefore none of this applies to it, but also killing its operatives is not considered murder or a war crime.
If you're asking for my personal opinion - it's about intent. Organisations that have the clear intentions to kill and hurt as many civilians as possible are clearly terrorist organisations. Internationally recognised organisations that do not and try to minimise civilians casualties are not. Everything in between is a case by case gray area.
I can't attest to what the average person in Gaza thinks, but I reckon after 20 years of Hamas rule a lot of the people are already indoctrinated and their world view, specifically regarding Jewish people, is at least somewhat detached from reality. This is clearly reflected in the pro Palestinian Arabic social media profiles.
The terrorist designation of a group is specific to the countries calling that group a terrorist group. Most nations of the world actually do not designate Hamas as a terror group. There is still a responsibility for a state military to adhere to international laws of conflict when engaging a non-state group.
Making even Palestinian children look like potential terrorists is the real propaganda here. Easier to kill a child if you think they could be a soldier. You're not able to confirm this nor can anyone, but you are prepared to go on this "hunch", make children of Gaza less like children and more like military so that killing them is easier to stomach.
The only way to deescalate is to give Palestinians justice. There is no benefit to Israel from carpet bombing Gaza
They are the ones dropping the bombs on them in a city they surrounded with walls? When should they be held to account for these virtual murders? This is an offensive action, not a defensive one. These kids aren't coming at soldiers in waves, they're being crushed under rubble from bombs dropping on the places they are attempting to find safety. Whole families dying like that.
You need to get out of whatever echo chamber you're in.
Sorry, the only echos I hear is the horrified screams of children getting bombs dropped on them as they starve and die of thirst in Gaza. Maybe help them get out?
What do you mean? You can watch it happening, it's not a secret. There aren't attacks on Israel right now,, they aren't being invaded, Gazans are pinned in a box being slaughtered in one of the densest cities in the world.
What? Of course there are attacks on Israel right now.
There is ongoing mortar and rocket fire from Gaza on Israel
Also Lebanon fires rockets hitting Israel, in collaboration with Palestine
The death toll in Israel is lower because they have infrastructure that protects the civilians from the rockets.
While in Gaza the population is extremely dense with about 12000 people per square kilometre and no shelters.
Also Hamas wants civilians to stay in the zones because Hamas entire defense strategy depends on Israel killing civilians in Gaza. If that wasn't happening, much less people would stand behind Palestine.
You can find here an analysis from the NATO on how Hamas uses "human shields".
You do realise that Hamas is also dropping bombs on Israel the whole time, yes?
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them? The ministry of health published the numbers. You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the "real" number of children victims, if you like.
All of them are fucking children. Everyone under 18 is a child. Stop this bullshit.
It's disingenuous to suggest however there isn't a difference between civilians and fighters. Either way though, yeah, they're all children. I don't know if it's more horrifying for a child soldier to be killed vs a civilian child either. It's two different kinds of horror.
Bigger font doesn't make you more right.
That's just the thing with manipulating numbers - we can't do the math. That's why it's so effective and why you need to apply critical reading to these kind of reports.
Answer me this - say you have a group of people preparing to launch a rocket. That rocket is inaccurate but they aim it towards a city. There's a high chance that you'll be able to intercept it, but there's always a chance that it'll fall on a building and kill civilians.
You can target this group, drop a bomb on them and stop them from firing this rocket. Now you learn that 2 of them are 17 years old. Do you drop the bomb? Or do you let them fire the rocket?
In that example, I would be in prison because I refused to join the IDF.
So by avoiding any action you would allow them to fire the rocket.
I understand and respect that.
It's a huge gray area and just one example of the complex morality component of this conflict.
By avoiding being part of the apartheid system of Israel, I'm one step in the right direction.
So idf should disarm and let their families and fellow countryment be slaughtered like lambs?
You are misrepresenting Israel's options. It's a logical fallacy. It's not "kill or be killed", and also seems like it's very dangerous for the hostages that Israel does a ground invasion.
That's certainly what the hostages families think
The only thing that's really propaganda here is your comment. A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child, and no amount of pretending otherwise by propagandists like yourself will change that fact.
How so?
I agree, but I'll copy what I answered the other comment about this exactly: It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
You just don't get to throw up your hands and say "thats war." This is not normal and should in no way be normalized (as you seem to be attempting to do.)
edit: a word
You're ignoring the main points and attacking a straw man again.
no, just tired of your shtick
Reasoning? Critical thinking? Logic? Seeing things as complex rather than one side is 100% correct and the other is 100% at fault? Answering to the point instead of bombastic statements or disinformation aimed to trigger emotional responses?
Stop behaving like a fanatic.
Hey you're the one who is suggesting we redefine what childhood is to excuse more of Israel's crimes.
You keep attacking straw men.
There are children soldiers and Gaza. There are 16 and 17 years old (and younger) that have active combative roles. You don't have to look far to find them, just go to the Hamas and Gaza social media profiles and see the profiles of their operatives.
It's deplorable, it's tragic, but it's the reality.
I'm not redefining childhood and I'm not supporting killing of children. I do say that when reading these kind of reports you should be aware that they show only a part of the information.
I don't have social media. Provide me with some screenshots then.
Don't ask to be spoon fed information - that's how you get incorrect and inaccurate info.
Here, a simple google search to start with https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+children+soldiers
I'm asking you to prove your claim, not to be spoon fed. So either show me a link or keep your claim unproven.
The latest UN Document for Children and Armed Conflict report https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/%7B65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9%7D/S_2023_363.pdf , item 95 - identifies and calls to stop PIJ and Hamas from "killing and maiming and the recruitment and use of children"
This is the most official source on the matter.
Thanks
It’s neither reasonable nor logical to justify the murder of innocent children. And yet here you are…
Propaganda is what's coming from your mouth.