this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2024
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Do you think another civil war can happen in the US? (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by Zeon@lemmy.world to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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People keep saying this and I personally don't really believe it, I think there could be a couple riots, but not like a full on civil war. What does everyone think?

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[โ€“] tomatolung@sopuli.xyz 20 points 1 week ago (2 children)

So I talked to a PhD who's work covered civil wars across the world, and asked about this. Turns out there are several signs you need to see which makes a civil war more likely. Most of which we haven't even gotten close to, because many of them are economic related and right now the US is still the single largest economy in the world where peoples standard of living is still very comfortable.

I asked ChatGPT to describe this and these are the highlights, in order of historical priority?

  • Political instability and weak governance are present.
  • There are deep ethnic, religious, or sectarian tensions.
  • The economy is declining with high inequality.
  • Persistent social unrest and widespread protests occur.
  • External powers are interfering or supporting different factions.
  • There is significant resource scarcity and competition.
  • Militarization and proliferation of arms increase.
  • Systematic human rights violations and repression take place.
  • Society experiences strong ideological polarization.
  • Demographic pressures such as rapid population growth or urbanization exist.
  • The rule of law and justice systems are breaking down.
  • Historical grievances and unresolved conflicts resurface.

Note that the US does have some of these, but not to the evident level that you saw in Rwanda, Sudan, Yugoslavia, Syria, Burundi, Eritrea, Somalia, Libya, Myanmar, Haiti, and others. In short, if you look at the indicators, although the US is indeed troubled, it's not troubled enough for people to hot the streets with more than riotous intent.

[โ€“] xerxos@feddit.org 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Let's go point by point:

  • Political instability and weak governance are present.

  • No

  • There are deep ethnic, religious, or sectarian tensions.

  • Yes

  • The economy is declining with high inequality.

  • Economy: not declining - Inequality: high

  • Persistent social unrest and widespread protests occur.

  • Might happen if Trump loses or steals the presidency

  • External powers are interfering or supporting different factions.

  • Yes, big time

  • There is significant resource scarcity and competition.

  • Not yet, but global warming might make this happen

  • Militarization and proliferation of arms increase.

  • Well, it's the USA

  • Systematic human rights violations and repression take place.

  • Might happen under Trump

  • Society experiences strong ideological polarization.

  • Yes

  • Demographic pressures such as rapid population growth or urbanization exist.

  • No

  • The rule of law and justice systems are breaking down.

  • No

  • Historical grievances and unresolved conflicts resurface.

  • No

[โ€“] nitefox@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago

How is there not political instability and weak governance?

[โ€“] tomatolung@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago

Good fill-in on that. i think I'd add some context to each which is worth discussing.

  • Political instability and weak governance are present.

    • No, there are some arguably elements, but when you compare to the issues you see in the countries who've had them "No" is good a simple distilled answer.

  • There are deep ethnic, religious, or sectarian tensions.

    • Yes, with the caveat that we are seeing low level tensions as compared to the direct violent and organic engage issues you might see in Syria, Haiti, Yugoslavia, etc. There is racism with violence and tension, but not at the widespread near genocidal level which are the signs which is considered. I admit this is arguably, but worth discussing as it's a framing issue about gun violence, police use of force, structural violence, etc.

  • The economy is declining with high inequality.

    • Economy: not declining - Inequality: high, this in particular is going to be a hard sign to trip, given how widespread the middle class is in the US vs other examples. It's just a much much larger base that needs to get squeezed so much more before you'll likely see French like protests about the wage disparity, corruption, or other inequality challenges. It's very relevant, but just unlikely to get a significant population to say it's not fair enough to act on it... When they can still go out to eat, watch movies, have disposable income, and more.

  • Persistent social unrest and widespread protests occur.

    • Might happen if Trump loses or steals the presidency, this I'm just going to avoid given the continuing discussion.

  • External powers are interfering or supporting different factions.

    • Yes, big time, substantiated from a foreign power stand point. I'd point out that this should also describe multinational companies as much as foreign powers.

  • There is significant resource scarcity and competition.

    • Not yet, but global warming might make this happen, agree. Starting to see some changes due to some globalization, pandemic, and your point of climate change.

  • Militarization and proliferation of arms increase.

    • Well, it's the USA, agreed... But we are not seeing this based on strictly ethic lines in a way.

  • Systematic human rights violations and repression take place.

    • Might happen under Trump

  • Society experiences strong ideological polarization.

    • Yes, I'd caveat this with the reality that although it's perceived as half the country that is polling well for Trump, it's closer to a third or less. Not that the ideology divide isn't pertinent, but just that there are about 80 million people who don't vote in the US, so voter participation in presidential election is about 60%. So perception is that we have huge divide, but it's driven by less and more extreme voices then the masses.

  • Demographic pressures such as rapid population growth or urbanization exist.

    • No, I would actually argue this might be yes. The housing crunch is driven by a rural to urban migration, which has exacerbated the housing shortage. This in addition to the US being an outlier that has kept it's population growth rate higher than other developed countries has continued to increase the US population, which is only recently beginning to slow. This is not at the same level as other collapsed countries, but is what gives people the perception that the US is struggling.

  • The rule of law and justice systems are breaking down.

    • No, agreed although the judge choices and decisions of late leave much to be desired.

  • Historical grievances and unresolved conflicts resurface.

    • No, agreed with the caveat that racial tension are at play and perceptions focus this to include immigrants.